I don't have the first message sent to me or my response to it, because I had no idea it would get this ridiculous or funny. Since I don't have the original first two messages, I'll just sum them up, and Lady's name has been masked to preserve anonymity (although I have to say I'd be just delighted if she saw this and had a few more fun things to say to me). Each message's header is my silly attempt to sum up the thrust of the message described below it, though these headers themselves are NOT actual quotes.

Message #1: Lady to swankivy: Can't you put your measurements into a measurement system someone could actually USE?

The first message referenced my recipe for banana bread and complained about my use of the measurement of "a stick." The user requested in a sort of "dear lord why do I have to explain this to you??" tone that I provide some kind of equivalent for "a stick" that someone outside the U.S. could use, like "grammes" or ounces. I don't remember the exact wording, but all I know is it mentioned "a stick" and specifically asked me to provide the measurement in something other than American measurements for the sake of the rest of the world.

I was ready and willing to do so, but for one thing. Putting just "a stick" didn't sound like something I would do, so I went to my recipe to make sure, and there indeed it was written in the ingredients:

1 stick of butter or margarine (1/2) cup

So . . . it had both the "stick" and the by cup measurement. I was a little offended at the insinuation that my recipe was missing vital information since it did provide a standard measurement as well as an easy reference, so I wrote a message expressing my feelings.

Message #2: swankivy to Lady: It says a stick, but it also gives an exact measurement that you could have easily converted.

This is the last one I don't have exact text for. I basically told her, "The recipe doesn't just say 'a stick'--it also says 1/2 cup, which is four ounces. The measurement I gave is easily translated into other measurement conventions."

[This was not well received.]

Message #3: Lady to swankivy: How am *I* supposed to understand your backwoods American ways?

How is it "easy" to translate half cup into *anything*? How is someone from a country where they use only metric measurements supposed to magically guess what size cups you people use?!? Americans. Sheesh.

[Needless to say, I figured I had just found someone with a tremendous chip on her shoulder who was ready to sneer at me for having the gall to be American in public. Here we have a classic case of ignorance coupled with righteous indignation that anyone should expect her to look outside her bubble. Here we go.]

Message #4: swankivy user to Lady: Hello, it's not magic--it's standard.

Pardon me? I'm a baker. And I have a ton of cookbooks that have no "standard" measurements from where I live--everything's in ounces and/or grams, et cetera. I found it "easy" to translate them back to the cups and whatnot that we use here, because these resources are readily available. It's nice if a cookbook tells you both, but usually they don't. Like it or not, American measurements are a well-established standard in baking, and anyone who does a lot of it will learn to understand the standards. I don't have any illusions that you in another country need some kind of "magical" process to translate the measurements any more than I used magic when I looked up English-to-American transitions on the Internet. Okay?

[I figured that drawing attention to the fact that I had indeed come up against the same problem in my baking English recipes--AND SOLVED IT--would make her get off my back. No such luck.]

Message #5: Lady to swankivy: How dare you tell me what's "standard" where I live?

Yeah, of course it's okay. It's perfectly natural for you, as an American, to tell me, who is not, what the standard "is" where I live. I mean, how should I know? I only live here. And am an inferior baker, to boot.

[Uh-huh. So, this comment elicited a great eyeroll from me, and I figured I'd just have to talk to the widdle thing and explain to her that there was no need to get her panties in a twist; facts are facts, American measurements are American measurements, and it really isn't that complex. Here's this.]

Message #6: swankivy to Lady: "A half cup" is no obscure measurement. You too can use Google.

Hon, none of that was meant to insult you. The fact is, you insinuated in your first message that my using "a half cup" was some obscure measurement, like I was telling you I wanted you to use a dollop the size of my daddy's little finger. You were telling me, by saying that, that you thought my node wasn't being clear or thorough. However, in my experience a recipe book uses some standard set of measurements, be it English, American, or Austrialian units, and it is up to bakers to do a little figuring if they want to make the recipe. I happened to node that recipe the way it came out of the book, and I didn't bother to translate into every possible permutation because as I saw it people are capable of adapting recipes to their needs. You saw the recipe on E2, hence you have access to the Internet; I figured you had the tools to google up a reliable converter as I did when I made my first British recipe. Forgive me if I assumed you knew things you didn't--I see the world as bigger than my American backyard and I thought other folks on the 'Net did too.

[You see, E2 is a fairly worldly place. And this chick wasn't just some snerty halfbreed troll, though I did notice her homenode listed "arguing at great length" as one of her specialties. I figured she'd understand it if I said I didn't intend to baby the other users. Well guess what? Nope.]

Message #7: Lady to swankivy: We don't use your system where I am, so it can't be considered a standard. You think you're the centre of the world.

Patronising is good. Patronising is what will really get me on side here. Implying that I am lazy, ignorant, narrow minded or all three is also a really good reason for keeping this conversation going. Mind you, if your idea of being cosmopolitan and inclusive is to tell me that your local system should be - or indeed, is - the standard where I live, then I'd still rather be my kind of ignorant than your kind of knowledgeable. Strange as it may seem, I own some cook books too - and not one of them has the bad taste to measure in cups something that is sold in solid blocks, nor to quote as ingredient measurements such un-knowable quantities as a "pack" or "stick". We all like to think that we live in the centre of the universe. That is human. But to insist that your bit really is the centre - well that is something the Americans share only with the French. PS For the record, I did precisely mean that your node lacked clarity. Not just that node, your whole body of work - not once that I could see in your pagan baking nodes do you explain your measurement system.

[Okay, so now I have deep personal flaws and think I'm the center of the universe because I use my home country's well-recognized system of measurement, and now my cookbooks have "bad taste" to cite "a stick" when here they are sold IN STICKS (not to mention I GAVE an equivalent *knowable* quantity right from the start). At this point either she steadfastly refuses to do a search for conversion tables on the 'Net because she's so sure no one recognizes this stuff OR she knows she's wrong and just doesn't care.]

[But this is where it got verrry interesting. Because, you see, she set herself up as a good example of recipe noding because SHE never uses stuff like "a pack" or "a stick" and SHE must "explain" her measurement system if she criticizes me for not doing so. Hmm. Time to go look at her recipe nodes. I only clicked a few before I found enough to shake my head in surprise and write her back.]

[One of her nodes said to use "three or four ladelfuls" of something; a measurement for "half a bunch of dill" was given; there was an instruction to add "half a container of cream" and my favorite, a "good handfull [sic]" of cumin seeds. On top of that, every node was entirely metric-oriented; this wasn't a case of someone who had been nice enough to lay out all forms of measurement in her own nodes and was mad at me for being so lazy as to only node American; this was someone who had done the *exact* same thing as me but WITHOUT providing any exact measurements for things like the dill and the "container" of cream. And on top of that, she seemed almost smug and deliberate about not providing American measurements; one of her nodes cited oven temperatures for degrees Centigrade and a gas stove measurement, but said "no speako ferenheito" after those two. Oh, brilliant.]

Message #8: swankivy to Lady: American measurements are understood. Deal with it. Oh, and you're a hypocrite.

Believe me, I'm not not trying to get you on my side or "keep this conversation going." You'd decided what you thought of me before you sent me message one. You started this conversation already believing that you understood my attitude. Before ever speaking to me, you had put me in this box of rude, self-centered American based solely on the fact that I only include American measurements.

And then you went as far as to act as though American measurements are some backwoods hick way of measuring. Fact: American measurements are one of the three MAJOR standards in baking. Notice I did not (nor did I ever) try to insist that "my" way is "the" standard--you had already decided I thought that way before talking to me and you've ignored every explanation I've made citing its legitimacy as a tool of the trade, trying to insist that I *actually* mean that it is the standard everywhere, including where you live (where I have never been). I'm not ignorant, but you've decided that's how I think. Perhaps spelling it out will make a difference: There are three major standard systems of measurements. Everyone uses some system. If one does not use the one that a cookbook uses, one translates that recipe into one's local context.

Glancing at your list of noded recipes I see you do more *cooking* than baking, but very exact measurements are necessary for most baking as it is more of a science than cooking. I also see that in a display of flagrant hypocrisy you node only *your* area's measurements, and though I glanced at only a few of your recipe nodes I noticed you use teaspoons/tablespoons just like we do--maybe there are places that don't use these; those aren't "exact measurements," are they? You insulted me for "bad taste" of using "a stick," but you have "half a bunch" of dill in one recipe, or "half a container" of cream. Do you not understand that these are not exact measurements any more than my "stick" of butter (though I also included a real measurement for it)? I caught in your nodes such exact measurements as "a ladleful" and "a good handful." I don't know about where you live, but over here there are a lot of different sizes of ladle, and my hands are pretty small. In that case, does it matter? Probably not. But please don't sit there and act like I'm some priggish narcissist who thinks the world should conform to her standards. I never said anything even close to that; I did, however, point out that American measurements are a widely used standard in baking and you cannot deny that resources for translation of these to any other system are widely available.

If you think it's not okay for me to convey information with a widely accepted system of measures that is *understood*, though not necessarily used, all over the globe, but then you turn around and node all of your recipes with only your area's oven measurements and include only your own systems of measures, you are the pot calling the kettle black. What I see here observing your conversation and your work is not a person who is righteously indignant at my provincial attitude (which is an invention based on assumptions that are untrue); I see a person who specifically finds American ways and practices insulting in and of themselves. So I suppose I should node everyone's measurements because America's measurements are obscure to you, but you should be allowed to cite oven temperatures for centigrade and gas but totally get away with "no speako ferenheito." Catch my drift?

[The end? Not even close. I guess she either didn't expect me to look at her nodes OR she didn't understand that her recipes were an exact example of the attitude she claimed to hate on my part. This is ridiculous.]

Message #9: Lady to swankivy: I'm a cook, not a baker, so I don't have to have exact measurements. And now I can't have banana bread because you keep using these obscure measurements I don't understand.

How can you justify both telling me that I am not qualified to comment on your choice of measurement system because I'm more of a cookd than a baker *and*, at the same time, blame me for not being precise enough measurements in my _cooking_ recipes? Surely I can be either willfuly *or* naturally ignorant and hypoctirical; I would have to have a plit personality to be both. Yes, cooking is more lenient than baking - which is why it is your _baking_ recipes that I find insufficiently informative, as opposed to every single recipe that happens to hve been noded by an American.What riled me - and possibly awoke my deep seated prejudices - was not the paucity of helpful information in your nodes, but your derisive rejection of my request for further information with the offhand and - frankly - ignorant assertion that you are following some universal standard. All cookbooks published in the UK give 3 kinds of temperatures (C, F & Gas) and at least two weight measures (metric and either ounces or parts of pouds, or both). In my own recipes, wherever any of the measurements are crucial to the success of a recipe, they are given precisely. You yourself say that this precision is much more important in baking, so where do you get off calling me a hypocrite? You just couldn't be bothered, and are trying to shake off my revelation of your sloppiness by calling me by turns lazy, stupid, ignorant and now hypocritical - not to mention an Anti-American bigot. Well, I'm not given to bigotry, but I _am_ very fond of banana bread, a recipe for which I will now have to hunt down from a more congenial source. Too bad that rather than give a simple answer to a simple question, you've had to turn this into some kind of transatlantic slinging match. It's no use accusing me of being the one to perpetuate this discussion, since it's pretty hard to have a one-sided argument regardless of how belligerently ignorant and hypocritical one is. Catch my drift?

[Yup, I couldn't be bothered, and her revelation of my sloppiness is just throwing me out of my britches. Except that she still hasn't realized using cups is not "sloppy"--not knowing they're standard is sloppy. There's nothing imprecise about using these exact measurements. Oh, and it's my fault for beginning to sling the mud even though she's the one who started it with "sheesh. AMERICANS." (I accused her of ignorance because she refused to acknowledge the acceptability of a system used throughout much of the civilized world, not because she nodes in grams. 'Scuse me, GRAMMES. There's a little difference there.)]

[Yes, there's more. And I had noticed she argued in a way I'd only ever seen before from people who already knew they'd lost their battle; they'd realized they were dealing with someone who has more knowledge or more experience than they do on the subject at hand, but refuse to admit it because that would mean losing face. So the usual method of dealing with this is to reiterate points that have already been successfully defended and to bash the other person for insensitivity, ignorance, rudeness, et cetera, assigning them imaginary faults. She fell into that category perfectly. Observe.]

Message #10: swankivy to Lady: You still don't get that I gave exact measurements. Your arguing style shows that you know you're wrong. Get off my ass.

Okay, all differences between cooking and baking aside, I think the main thrust of your argument here is that you think American measurements are not an acceptable system. You seem to be telling me that the system used throughout my entire large country with a huge population is actually a provincial backwoods system not recognized by the world outside our little American bubble. I don't know why you're having such a hard time understanding this, but the system here is recognized. *It is easy* to find conversion tables between American and any of the other standards. I did it. You have 'Net access. You can do it too.

This was not pointed out in my answering message because I wanted to say "Do it yourself!" This was pointed out because I was defending my node's completeness. As I said, you insinuated that "1/2 cup of butter" is not enough information when it's just as exact a measurement as any expression of grams. The Everything Kitchen Conversion Table confirms this. You've also accused me in your most recent messages of refusing to answer your question. I guess you didn't read my messages because you were too busy being offended by them, because I straightforwardly answered in my first message back to you that 1/2 cup of butter is the same as 4 ounces. The assertion that the conversion is easy was not a shot at you, but an explanation of why saying "1/2 cup" was enough. (You seemed to conveniently ignore that I gave the 1/2 cup measurement in my node and whined about my use of "a stick," and when I pointed out that I also said 1/2 cup, you insisted this wasn't enough for you.)

Incidentally, I have no illusions about its being both of us keeping an argument afloat; I know discussions need two people. (Guess you thought you had me figured out there too--all up and ready for me to try to make everything your fault.) I do notice that in your style of discussion here you do two interesting things: a) Ignore it whenever I repeatedly "prove" my position (ex: American measurements are an acceptable and workable standard), returning repeatedly to points I have already overturned; and b) Make sweeping judgments of my character by assigning me beliefs and attitudes that do not necessarily follow from my actions (ex: Deciding I must think America is the center of the universe because I insist our measurements are recognized in other places). Both of these facets of an argument style indicate a person who knows she's fighting a losing battle. I see what you're doing and it's really pointless.

You're blasting me for using measurements judged by you to be obscure like "a stick" (and ignoring that I provided an alternate in that instance), and then denying that you're a hypocrite even though you use measurements like "a package" and DON'T provide an alternate (and try to pawn it off on the fact that it's cooking, not baking--I still don't know what a "package" is, so it's moot). It all goes back to your original comment: "How is someone from a country where they use only metric measurements supposed to magically guess what size cups you people use?!?" My answer? Look on ANY conversion table. We're there. Kinda shows you we're not using the king's left foot to measure by, eh?

You can't keep telling me I'm a snot for believing my country's measurements are a standard when they ARE, just like yours are. It's like trying to say English isn't one of the standard languages; it's a fact that it is. Saying so does not mean that I think everyone speaks it or should speak it. But if one does not speak it, one has two choices if one wants to partake of wisdom imparted in English: One, learn it; or two, get a translator. Notice how "rant about how the author should translate into MY language and how dare they assume I speak English" is not a third option.

[These messages were getting awfully long and I was getting awfully sick of writing them to someone who was obviously not receptive at all. She was bound and determined to believe that I, as an American, obviously think I'm the center of the universe just like those damn Frenchies (har har har), because I have the unmitigated gall to expect others to use a conversion table provided right on our same website (not to mention the ones available on Google). So anyway, I can't say I wasn't glad when the next message she sent, though insulting, showed the desire to stop arguing.]

Message #11: Lady to swankivy: Um--nuh-uh, your mom. And I was ONLY trying to help but you can't take criticism. Bye see ya!

Oh for fuck's sake. Ask a simple question, huh? All the things you are accusing me of doing - ignoring valid counter points, making sweeping judgements about my character, etc. etc., you've done yourself in the course of this argument.
My whole purpose in starting this - which I have already explained, but you chose to ignore - was to say that I found your node incomplete. It's a noding comment. Feedback. Instead of a dumb downvote. You know? All that good E2 stuff.
Of course usually I don't bother, precisely because some people are so bad at accepting any kind od criticism, however benign. I'll tell you what, I'm going to wrap this up now, and next time I see your name in the New Writeups nodelet I'll just walk on by, OK?

[You seeing this? "However benign"? Ha ha HA. It wasn't "ya know, I'd appreciate a conversion to grams and/or ounces since I don't understand cup measurements." It was "can't you put this in a form people can USE? And Americans aren't people, so don't say sticks or cups." It was still inappropriate to ask me to convert my node to another system if she didn't think it necessary to convert hers, but still I would have UNDERSTOOD a request of the first type. The second? Not feedback. It's called insult and condescension. Surprise. Not that I didn't insult and condescend, but I certainly didn't start off that way, and how else are you going to deal with someone who looks one of the three standard measurements of baking in the face and says "no one outside your farm uses THAT." Know what? Bite me!]

Message #12: swankivy to Lady: That wasn't "feedback." That was "attack." Maybe people "just can't take it" because of how you dish it out.

Yeah, I don't mind wanting to put this to sleep--I'm also sick of whining at you--but you didn't just ask a simple question in the innocent spirit of giving me feedback. You were all "sheesh, AMERICANS" right away because my node uses my country's standard measurements even though yours do the same thing. Feedback I have never minded, I've gotten a ton of it here over the years. But "How am I supposed to know what size cups you people use?!?" is not feedback--it shows a misunderstanding of "cup," I think, like you thought it was some random mug instead of an official measurement, and I on the other hand think any official measurement is fine as long as it's easy to translate. That's why I responded the way I did: You delivered your "feedback" through insults, not this benign commenting that you're trying to say you did. If that's how you meant it, it certainly didn't come through in your delivery. Maybe that's why you've had issues in the past with people not dealing with your feedback well--if everybody takes you wrong, it shouldn't be long before you start wondering if maybe the problem's with yourself, ya know? ::sigh:: I guess that's all.

[But guess what? That message was never received by her because she blocked me from her allowances.]

Message #13: Lady to swankivy: NAH NAH NAH BOO-BOO, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!

So . . . that's yet another arguing style of people who know they've lost an argument. They have a quick last word in which they cast themselves as the mature, rational person who's just trying to help, and then they deny the other person the chance to rebut. That way, they feel like they "win." Guess what? I see right through that. It's a screaming admission that she had run out of ridiculous defenses for her nonexistent position and wanted it to be over.

Looking back on it, I think there may have been two basic problems: One, the use of the word "standard," and two, the use of the word "cup." I really think that she didn't understand their meanings; she seemed to get very upset whenever I said "standard," like she thought it meant I was saying therefore American measurements were the ONLY ones. No, I was saying "standard," as in substantially uniform and well established by usage in the speech and writing of the educated and widely recognized as acceptable. As in, it's not an expression of the amount of butter that fits in Ma's ranch boot. A half cup is a half cup all over these here United States, and it can be four ounces in any British kitchen or 125 grams anywhere in Europe. That's what "standard" means. And as for "cup"--again, it's not Bubba's soda pop mug. It's certainly not a container of cream of an undisclosed size. It's a CUP. Standard. Oops, there's that word again. One of its dictionary definitions is a half pint : eight fluid ounces. I think I rest my case. Maybe I should have quoted the dictionary when I argued with her? But that probably would have come off as obnoxious. (Like she didn't think that anyway; I'm blocked from her box like a snerty little kid.)

Anyway, so now she's famous on my Jerks Page and everyone can see an example of a Euro-snot who's guilty of the same exact things she accuses Americans of: Head-in-the-sand mentality and a belief that only our way is right.

Maybe now I'll go write a letter to the authors of my British cookbooks and ream them a new one for their sin of speaking only metricese. Now I'm gonna have to find more congenial sources for all those recipes because they couldn't be bothered to know ahead of time that their books were going to be sold in America. How dare they, I say! And how dare they call their cookies "biscuits," and what is this junk about "icing sugar" when I know only confectioner's and granulated? Oh wait. There's this thing. Called Internet. I'm gonna get me some of that.

Mikey: Well, I think that this was handled with the best of all intentions, for the most part English folks/most European are smart intelligent people however this person is a perfect example of the international stupidity, "no offense to the rest of the Eurpean folks with some common sense and the ability to read things completely before jumping to conclusions."

Marina Fry: Oh dear, that was a long-winded affair. I'm sorry my compatriot was so bloody-minded. However, I'm having a nightmare time converting a recipe for cornbread. It says 2 cups of cornmeal, but all I find on the convesion tables is a liquid conversion, not a dry one. Can you help at all?

Kind regards from the UK, where we don't all hate Americans. Oh, and you really ought to viisit here, because its lovely.

Margaret: this is hilarious. By the way, I'm trying to convert a recipe for cream brulee and with your chart I now know that I need 150 tsps of cream. But I still can't figure out how much a "pun" is. But since it calls for the "pun" of strawberries to be used to garnish the cream brulee, I guess I'll just use however many I want.

Steve HURLEY: OK, I got so irritated with antique measurements in American recepies ( Cups? tea-cups, coffee-cups, egg-cups... ) that I just printed out a conversion chart and stuck it inside the baking-supplies-cupboard door. Still... :-)
And how about feet, inches, ounces, pounds, stones, yards, miles.
Goodness, how quaint. I thought there was globalis(z)ation and 'base 10' really is easier in the long run than 'base cup'.

Kind regards,
Steve

Heather Down: I would just like to thank you for at last over my years of wondering i brought an american muffin book some time ago and in it some very good recipies but some had measurments in using a stick of butter and no other measurements so at last i can use the recipe book.Glad to have found this site and for the useful info.

Gordon Purger: Hi,
Got to say that you both are as bad as each other. This is easy after the fact but you could have just sent the info in your reply. Obviously, without the exact phrasing it is difficult to conclude exactly.
Remember- it takes two to tango

swankivy: Yeah, I did. I answered her explicitly in my very first message, while telling her also that both measurements in my original article were easily translated. When the point of this page is "look what a jerk she was while demanding information of me and pretending I'm unreasonable," I don't see how anyone can make a case for me sharing some blame for her terrible attitude.

Nick: First let me say how much I enjoyed your hilarious dialogue re Breadmaking
I have a question.
I have just started breadmaking, and to my horor found that a measuring cup(1 oz = 250ml)when filled with water,
did not reach the mark in my measuring Jug!
From the table you published it would appear that this is an AMERICAN CUP!
Transferring one ounce of water from the "Cup",only filled the Jug to the 150ml and just over a1/2 Cup.
I am at a loss as to knowing whether I should op up the Jug to the 250 ml mark.
Can you advise?
Thanks.
Nick

Paddy: I'd just like to say.. this woman is not representative of UK culture..
Having said that there is a prevalence to immediately assume American = arrogant (I do it myself for comedic effect - just as I hope Americans will continue to insult my teeth for no apparent reason - but many just do it as a social law).

Wolfgang: How dare you speak in this antiquated pseudo-creole of Old High German that you deign to call the English Language? Why don't you speak a language people can understand, like Interlingua?
Vider, iste es non mal. Tu comprender iste un poco, incluso quando tu non parlar le lingua.