From: Alban
To: Ivy
Subject: Self Initiation

I have just read your 'rite' for self Initiation! What RUBBISH!!!! You are so deluded. You are damaging the Craft by your nonsense!! I take comfort in that The Goddess will hide Her Mysteries from you and rest of you silly pagans!

How dare you imply that by performing a self intiation ritual that a person is made a Witch and Priest/ess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As the Book of Shadows says ' May the CURSE of the Goddess be upon you'!!!!

Alban
High Priest, [his temple name redacted], London, England

[For the record, there is not one particular "book of shadows." It's a generic term for a Witch's collection of rituals and spell notes and whatnot. And considering most people who practice a form of Witchcraft live by the Threefold Law and do not have any dogma about curses from the Goddess, this almost sounds like a troll. It's bizarre.]

From: Ivy
To: Alban

Not to be disgusting or rude here, but you are exhibiting the exact same dogmatism and exclusionary b.s. that causes people to turn away from patriarchal religions in order to find something that resonates with them better.

How horrid it must be to try to turn away from a constricting religion only to find people like YOU standing there ALSO saying that it must be your way or no way.

For your information, the only thing that a person cannot be if they don't do things your way is a witch by your definition. Feel free to tell me nothing I think is right and nothing I do is important, but all it will do is confirm my suspicion that you and your ilk are close-minded bigots who take a great deal of satisfaction from excluding people who just want to understand.

Some notes:

I have just read your 'rite' for self Initiation! What RUBBISH!!!!

I actually think that perhaps you did not do your homework, because I have never written an initiation rite.

I have provided links to two of them; one is on another site, and one is copied and credited but composed by another person--or rather, people. These people are the Alexandrian Witches Janet and Stewart Farrar, and I do believe they are some of the most well-recognized Witches in history. If any rite is legitimate, it is theirs. I do not feel like I know enough about initiation to write a ritual like that, considering I don't personally believe initiation is applicable to me for the purposes of my practice of the Craft. It would be nice, should you reply to this, if you would tell me WHAT you are raving so passionately against since I have written no such initiation rite.

You are so deluded. You are damaging the Craft by your nonsense!!

I'm sure the Craft is now somewhere crying its eyes out. Next.

I take comfort in that The Goddess will hide Her Mysteries from you and rest of you silly pagans!

Oh look, it's the Craft equivalent of "You will burn in Hell, sinner!"

The Craft is sometimes also called "The Craft of the Wise." I think perhaps you'd actually attain some of that wisdom if you'd realize it doesn't have to come only from your established sources. "The trouble with humans is they assume that God is as judgmental as they are." Sorry, but my conception of deity does not judge a person as unworthy because they feel enlightened and satisfied by dedicating or inducting themselves in a way that has meaning in their own life.

I'm disappointed that someone who dwells under the same Pagan umbrella as I do has such provincial ideas about these things. You're not proving anything by being exclusionary. All you're proving is that YOU won't acknowledge the legitimacy of a person who self-initiates, and I doubt there is a soul on this Earth who cares what YOU think over what they personally feel.

Your opinion is meaningless in this instance, and it is especially meaningless because you chose to be confrontational about trying to smack me down with a basic "how dare you presume to know the truth when only we/I have the real truth???" I counter with this: How dare YOU assume you understand spirituality better than I do? You sound like a religious fanatic, and that is not a good thing.

How dare you imply that by performing a self intiation ritual that a person is made a Witch and Priest/ess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As the Book of Shadows says ' May the CURSE of the Goddess be upon you'!!!!

Your attitude is noted, and your attempt at being insulting is something I have no trouble shrugging off. You deserve far less of my time than typing this e-mail required, but I've got a compassionate streak within me that compels me to try to reach understanding with even the most snide and pretentious of commenters.

I truly hope you understand that by sending this mail to me, you've only showed me the limits of your mind and heart, not the illegitimacy of what I teach.

Wishing a curse of the Goddess upon me in the name of a belief system that encourages one to embrace the deity within has no meaning. All you're saying to me is YOU don't believe in or encourage what I'm doing (or, rather, what you probably mistook me for doing, since I'm not the one who wrote any self-initiation). I'm not scared of any curse you think you can throw at me, because I actually do know plenty about Witchcraft and it does not work that way.

I think it's pretty sick that you think you can speak with the authority of the Goddess, and that you think she would give two crackers about what someone considers an initiation. People forget that the rituals themselves are to represent a certain purpose, but it looks like your purpose has become the motions and notions used to enact the ritual rather than the actual meaning itself. And that is sad, and silly.

If you really sought to try to make things right in the world, as the Craft encourages, you would not send inflammatory messages that are nothing but insults and threats. You would calmly tell me what you think I did wrong and why, and try to encourage me through that logic to stop it. But that isn't your goal.

I think your goal was to feel righteous about attempting to spank me. Maybe it feels good to you to try to invalidate my beliefs? Well, mine don't depend on a book or on your interpretation of any law, and I don't recognize your authority to criticize my belief system on the basis that it isn't compatible with yours. It's exactly the same reason why I am not fazed when a Christian threatens me with hellfire. I don't believe in Hell.

And I don't believe that your way is "the" way to practice the Craft. We're both part of an umbrella religion that is supposed to encourage exploration and encourage the finding of answers personally. So maybe I'll just wrap this up by saying I think if this e-mail really represents how you think, then you have just missed the whole point of your religion, and it's you who's spouting utter rubbish.

I hope this has been so very gratifying for you, sending out a message attempting to claim the moral high ground. But it's only fair to let you know that I am not trying to compete with you, so feel free to bluster, scream, insult, and sneer all you want. My blessings; I sure hope it makes you feel wonderful and knowledgeable and oh so mature. Me, I think I'm just going to put my fingers in my ears until you either shut up or learn to approach another human being with the respect due to another creature. Haven't you learned anything from your Craft study?

Hmm. Apparently not.

~*ivY

From: Alban
To: Ivy

Oh dear, I seem to have touched a nerve!! I have heard your reasoning from many other pagans, its boring. You all seem to think that you are witches because you say that you are witches, without it being conferred by those who hold the authority to confere it. I guess authority is a bad word in your furry pagan world!

Self Initiation is just pure laziness. You show your ignorance by calling me a pagan. I am Not a pagan, I was initiated into the Mysteries of the Goddess and Her Priesthood, NOWHERE in the Rite was the word 'pagan' mentioned.

Just because certain well respected Priesthood now have changed their views on initiation dosnt make them right!

But those of us who are Craft Elders all know that people like you will believe what they want to, without having any training or authority to do what you do, which is very sad as you are missing out on so much! but thats your choice, and you know in your heart that its not the way of the Goddess and thats why you try and justify your position so agressively.

"If that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, thou shalt NEVER find it without thee"

From: Ivy
To: Alban

Oh dear, I seem to have touched a nerve!!

Heh--not really. But you don't seem to realize that if you go around attacking someone else's beliefs when they aren't hurting you, that's called dogmatic, evangelistic, and intrusive. You can't expect a group of bees to not behave as if attacked if you go around kicking their hives.

Your style here reminds me of those jerks who say gay people shouldn't get married because it violates THEIR conception of the sanctity of marriage. Well, I don't think the gay people marrying each other has anything to do with what some other unrelated couple can promise to each other and how real it is for either couple. So, if you feel that your witch-ness is threatened or made less special because someone else is using the term to describe themselves when they're not playing by YOUR rules, that makes you a bigot, and it also makes you wrong.

I have heard your reasoning from many other pagans, its boring. You all seem to think that you are witches because you say that you are witches, without it being conferred by those who hold the authority to confere it. I guess authority is a bad word in your furry pagan world!

You assume that there is only one "correct" way to be called a witch. If you can't accept that there are plenty of definitions of the word, then you're deluded. I don't care if someone in your organization and through your understanding of the world of witchery does not want to accept me as a witch. It really doesn't stop me from continuing to get meaning from my understanding.

If it makes you happy to attack people who practice differently from you and say "You are wrong because only WE have the true wisdom and you have not been initiated in OUR recognized way," then you are not contributing to your art or to the peace and happiness of the world. You're just basically being a proselytizing bastard, and I really don't need that in my life, nor does anyone else who tries to seek wisdom and happiness through their personal relationship with the environment.

You also seem to have made more assumptions about me--referring to me as a furry pagan indicates that you think I'm just some fluffy sweetness and light jerk who doesn't understand *the true deep mystery*. You are not fooling me into thinking you have all the answers or the only RIGHT answers because of the organization you belong to or the way you've chosen to approach your religion. You have not changed anything; you have only made yourself look like an intolerant jerk.

Do YOU know why you practice your religion? If it gives you satisfaction to practice that way, feel free to continue, but it's nothing but elitist and pretentious to react to others' beliefs as if they are ignorant and wrong just because they don't match yours.

I don't feel that I need another person's rules, rituals, and approvals (including initiation) to interact with what I feel is divine, and I am quite happy this way. Don't worry, I'm not trying to say that without initiation I can be what you are. I'm just saying I never said I wanted to be what you are.

What you're telling me about me being wrong and about me not having the authority to approach my spirituality without doing so by your rules is nothing different from Catholics vs. Baptists vs. Methodists . . . they're all sure each other are going to end up in Hell, right? By their own definitions, sure, those filthy sinners are all going to burn.

Naturally I think it's all really silly and also a waste of time and energy, considering I've never felt I needed a priest or any kind of intermediary to commune to my satisfaction. I think exactly the same thing about your practices. Live and let live is my approach to how you practice, but obviously you're not satisfied with your marriage until no gay people violate it by claiming they also deserve to declare their love for each other in a recognized ceremony. Get the idea?

Self Initiation is just pure laziness.

And yet again you have sidestepped my original question by throwing all these accusations at me when I really can't find anything on my page where I instruct readers in self-initiation. Is it just that you can't justify what you say? That's usually kind of important if you're going to go around accusing people of stuff. You have to make sure they're actually guilty of what you're blustering about. Go on. . . .

You show your ignorance by calling me a pagan. I am Not a pagan, I was initiated into the Mysteries of the Goddess and Her Priesthood, NOWHERE in the Rite was the word 'pagan' mentioned.

Pagan is a word the describes anyone outside the monotheistic group of the Judeo-Christian religions. Get a dictionary.

Just because certain well respected Priesthood now have changed their views on initiation dosnt make them right!

I don't care one way or another about initiation, any more than I care about whether the Pope gives his blessing to any number of things I'm going to do anyway. I don't recognize the Pope's authority and I don't care if he considers me a Catholic, because I have no desire to be called a Catholic. Same goes for you--I don't care to be considered one of your organization or your type of Craft practitioner.

So it doesn't bother me in the least if you claim I don't have the authority to call myself whatever I want to call myself without going through your red tape. I appear to be doing whatever I consider right for my own belief system, and it is satisfying, and you don't have to recognize it. It doesn't make a difference one way or the other. I thought I made that clear in the last mail . . . does it just not compute or something?

But those of us who are Craft Elders all know that people like you will believe what they want to, without having any training or authority to do what you do, which is very sad as you are missing out on so much! but thats your choice, and you know in your heart that its not the way of the Goddess and thats why you try and justify your position so agressively.

Keep telling yourself that--that somewhere deep inside, everyone who isn't doing what YOU consider right really knows they aren't on the right path. That is one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard.

I've heard the same logic from at least one fanatic of every major religion. Hare Krishnas KNOW that I don't know perfection because I do not participate in yoga and chanting the perfect name of the Godhead or whatever. Christians KNOW I haven't found peace because I do not have Christ at the center of my life. Muslims KNOW that because I have not given my devotion to Allah, I surely do not know what happiness truly feels like. So no, your logic does NOT work here--I've heard it before from plenty of people who are just as sure and just as wrong.

Now you just keep doing whatever works for you, and stop feeling so threatened by people like me that you let us interrupt whatever is so dang wonderful about what you practice.

And I think it's kinda cute that you assign me the role of the aggressor in this conversation when (as they say in all the schoolyards) you started it. You do realize you told me I wrote RUBBISH!!!!! (with lots of exclamation marks) and told me you wished the Goddess's CURSE upon me, right?

I guess I am supposed to hang my head and accept whatever you say (no matter how ignorant), or just not answer, or just leave whatever you say alone or accept it as truth, because actually trying to explain why I don't need your permission to explore my own spirituality is an act of aggression. I think this is the second point in this e-mail where you need a dictionary (and not only to learn how to spell the word "aggression"--to figure out what exactly it means!).

"If that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee, thou shalt NEVER find it without thee"

Why would you quote the Charge of the Goddess to me as if this line supports your position when it's probably the line in the poem that supports MINE more than anything? I mean, have you read this thing? Have you actually thought about what it means?

It means that the answers are within yourself, not without. Meaning the Goddess speaking here claims to be within each of us. That's exactly what I've been saying to you. I'm just as qualified to interpret the mysteries of life as you are, and if you think achieving an initiation and a title from people whose authority I don't recognize means you automatically have a spiritual link I couldn't possibly have, then you are deliberately misleading yourself.

I don't have anything to prove to anyone, nor do I need anyone's approval or permission to pursue my path and have it be just as valid. If you don't think so, all that happens is you're over there screaming that I'm deluded and no one really gives a rat's behind. If they want your approval, they will go to your organization and play by your rules and probably be quite happy with the degree they achieve. More power to them.

But I've never been a person who wants to explore spirituality in a group setting, so your organization is not for me and I'm honest enough to say so. Why are you so offended and threatened by the idea of a person who just doesn't need to follow your ways to be happy?

You say I don't know what I'm missing, and that is fine with me. You don't know what you're missing by doing it your way and not mine, so we're even. For that matter, you don't know what you're missing if you've never written a book or ten like I have, or written my kind of music or experienced my kind of art. We all miss some things if we choose to fully experience others. And if we worry about what we're missing all the time, we just end up missing all of it.

I don't feel any loss by not happening to choose your path. I really am happy on mine. If it makes you happy to go back to your corner grumbling that you "know" I'm not right and I'm not happy, have a whole lot of fun doing that, and I hope you enjoy your hateful self-righteousness. I won't feed you some line about how I know you'll realize the truth someday etc. etc. because in all likelihood you'll keep thinking the way you think until the day you die, and nothing will really come of it except you'll die satisfied that you had the one and only keys to the kingdom of truth and light with everyone else out there in the darkness of delusion. What a narrow, sad way to live, assuming everyone but those with your thoughts and beliefs are just "wrong" and "deluded," instead of opening yourself up to the possibility that maybe we've *got* something here, and maybe if it's not right for you it's still right for us!

You sound like you spend a lot of time with hate and self-righteousness surrounding your thoughts. Just try to remember that your lifestyle and beliefs are just that: Yours. I'm not trying to change them, which is more than I can say for you (well, or maybe you aren't really trying to change my mind so much as getting a lot of satisfaction out of shouting to the hills how deluded I am to think some way other than yours is okay).

I think I can end this letter by saying that I think being yourself is probably the worst punishment you'll ever have.

~*ivY

To: Ivy
From: Alban

Good for you! Lol

[Yeah, think he read anything I wrote? Nah. I also thought it was funny that his sig file with all his titles and temple name only appeared on the first mail. You know, as a way to show me his authority. This e-mail was a long time ago and I have learned not to bother with this kind of lecture to this kind of person, so if I encountered him today I'd probably give him something less than a third that length, but it probably wouldn't have mattered.]