From: Ryan
To: Ivy
Subj: Your Writing

I was surfing the web looking for.. well ideas. I came across your page and I have got to ask you, how old are you?? Your ideas are that of a adolescent girl that has never had a date in her life and frankly need to do some increasable soul searching, so maybe you can grow up and see the world for what it is. I am not a religious person at all, I am not some Mormon trying to get you to go on a mission, and not a Hindu trying to get you to go to Jerusalem. I am an ordinary person that thinks that a person of your intelligence should have the brains to be able to realize that her view on the world is so far skewed out of focus that she has completely thrown herself into a fantasy would. To all the people that have tried to convert you GOOD FOR THEM, maybe they were trying,(I apologize for the crude vocabulary) to get you to pull your head out of your ass. My suggestion is for you to get a real job with some real responsibility and learn what the real world is all about. I am in the army and have seen my friends go to war and have had to do some real pondering about God you are not special and you are not original, you are nothing but a teen that thinks that she knows the world, well I have a wake up call no one knows and no one will ever know.

Good Bye

To: Ryan
From: Ivy

Hi there!

I'm not sure what sort of response you expected from your self-righteous and rude attack on my beliefs, but here goes a play-by-play, feel free to clear some of this up.

I came across your page and I have got to ask you, how old are you?? Your ideas are that of a adolescent girl that has never had a date in her life and frankly need to do some increasable soul searching, so maybe you can grow up and see the world for what it is.

Okay, so a couple sentences into your e-mail, you have made a huge judgment on my character and you haven't bothered to even inform me what in the world you're responding to. So my first question is, what on my page did you read that provoked such a judgmental and off-base response?

My ideas are that of an "adolescent," apparently, so how about some clarification? How about a little example of the apparently obvious childishness of whatever I wrote, with some of your own interpretation there? I have no doubt that you know what is best for everyone, so please, show me where I've become such a strayed sheep.

"Never had a date in her life"? What does that have to do with anything, if I may ask? If you would be so kind as to identify whatever it is about my writing that makes you think my romantic life has something to do with my take on the world, I would much appreciate it.

"Need to do some increasable soul searching"? On what base do you make this remark? What's so off-kilter about me that makes you respond in such a fashion? And where in the world did you get that nonexistent word "increasable"?

I am not a religious person at all, I am not some Mormon trying to get you to go on a mission, and not a Hindu trying to get you to go to Jerusalem. I am an ordinary person that thinks that a person of your intelligence should have the brains to be able to realize that her view on the world is so far skewed out of focus that she has completely thrown herself into a fantasy would.

I am not sure what religion has to do with any of this, but please let me know which of my beliefs show how far gone I am.

To all the people that have tried to convert you GOOD FOR THEM, maybe they were trying,(I apologize for the crude vocabulary) to get you to pull your head out of your ass.

So here you're basically saying everyone who shared your belief that I'm wrong had every right to try to steamroll me with their own beliefs out of some book. I see you've put a lot of thought into this critique of my thought process.

My suggestion is for you to get a real job with some real responsibility and learn what the real world is all about.

Do you even know what I do for a living?

Tell me all about what the "real world" is about, since I apparently only know much about the inside of my own ass.

I am in the army and have seen my friends go to war and have had to do some real pondering about God

Ahh, so going into the Army is the meaning of life, we become clearer here. Or is that not what you were trying to say? Again I would appreciate it if you'd give me some clear reasons why I'm so obviously off-base if you actually want to help me out instead of smear me. (Assuming you sent this letter in the spirit of genuine good will, as I'm so sure you did.)

Oh, and incidentally, I don't quite understand why a) being in the Army and b) not arriving at the same conclusions as you did about God have anything to do with whether our pondering has been "real."

you are not special and you are not original, you are nothing but a teen that thinks that she knows the world, well I have a wake up call no one knows and no one will ever know.

Umm . . . I'm not sure where the "special" and "original" comments originate, do clue me on that as well. The bit about me being a teen who thinks she knows the world, that I can refute for you. I'm not a teen. On my next birthday, I'll be twenty-six. I'm also not sure what you mean by "no one knows and no one will ever know," and again I would appreciate some justification for why you're attacking me, since I don't recall saying anywhere that I knew the world better than anyone else.

So, let's review.

I want to know who the hell you think you are and what the hell you think you're doing sending me a letter like this without ANY explanation for why you're saying what you are.

I want to know what on my site you read that makes you think this sort of response is okay, and where you think I'm so wrong.

I want details, because none of what you said in your letter gives me any idea in the slightest what you got so offended about. Without this information, all I see is a letter from some fool who can rant and curse about how I'm so wrong but refuses to quote anything I said or anything that proves it wrong.

I'm looking forward to solving those mysteries.

~*~*iVY

To: Ivy
From: Ryan
Subj: "Attack #2"

Its me again, I was refreshed to find a person with your intelligence was actually willing to fight for there beliefs, although I was not "attacking" your beliefs I was attacking your self righteous attitude towards your beliefs. Like I said in the previous E-Mail I am not a religious man and I have no will to put another persons beliefs down. And one more thing before I give you the proof that you asked for, thank you for taking the E-Mail in the spirit that I wrote it in.

First off you sounded like you wanted proof that I had read you writings on God.

1."I don't want to talk to someone who is going to believe what they believe no matter what I say, because if that's their frame of mind"

A perfect example of the self righteous attitude that I am been commenting on, if you have it in your mind that you are going to change peoples minds, when you yourself are not willing to listen, or speak to a person as obstinate as yourself, then please take out all the portions of your web sight that says that you are so open minded and willing to listen.

2."Religion is a good thing to give people purpose and hope, but unfortunately most people don't understand that in essence they're all worshipping the same God."

If we are all worshiping the same God then please tell me why you are so combative toward the people that have different beliefs about God then you. If this statement is what you believe then would that not make all of the God worshiping people of the world brothers/sisters. And In many passages in your writing you say that you are not combative, (You have failed to prove that in any way in your writings) if this is true then why wouldn't you instead of trying to protect your beliefs try and persuade them to understand that we are, all brothers/sisters.

3. "I don't think that if God exists, "He" is an entity."

I think that this quote provide me with the perfect grounds to say that you have no right or privilege to say anything about what others believe, if you do not know yourself what your beliefs are.

4. "there is no good and evil, but I am pleased to be alive, and I'm not currently longing for Paradise and hoping to shuffle off this mortal coil because this IS essentially my Paradise, the Paradise I've created for myself, with help from other people and other circumstances."

(This is a weak but prominent argument)

You say that there are no good or evil in the world then please explain to me the Disease, Hunger, War, Death, Child abuse, Rapes, Prejudice, torture and all the atrocities that are committed through out this flawed but beautiful world that we live in.

There is the proof that you asked for, and to answer one of the other questions that you had the audacity to ask. Who am I to comment on you writings? I am an American citizen, and American soldier that , if you have not realized loves and protects the first amendment with a vengeance. I am very disappointed that a person that has so much to say would not understand that simple concept.

To: Ryan
From: Ivy

Hi there, I'm back. I bet you're glad.

Its me again, I was refreshed to find a person with your intelligence was actually willing to fight for there beliefs, although I was not "attacking" your beliefs I was attacking your self righteous attitude towards your beliefs.

I think what we have here is a perceived "self-righteous attitude," since every statement you listed below that you took to be proof of my attitude did not in any way seem to support your belief. Don't worry, I'll illustrate.

Like I said in the previous E-Mail I am not a religious man and I have no will to put another persons beliefs down. And one more thing before I give you the proof that you asked for, thank you for taking the E-Mail in the spirit that I wrote it in. First off you sounded like you wanted proof that I had read you writings on God.

Actually I had no idea what you were even responding to. Your first mail was actually that unclear. You were railing against my beliefs and/or my attitude behind them, and yet I didn't even know what beliefs you were citing. But in any case I didn't need "proof that you had read" anything. I just prefer to have a discussion with someone if I know, ya know, what I said that they're responding to. It kind of helps.

1."I don't want to talk to someone who is going to believe what they believe no matter what I say, because if that's their frame of mind"

A perfect example of the self righteous attitude that I am been commenting on, if you have it in your mind that you are going to change peoples minds, when you yourself are not willing to listen, or speak to a person as obstinate as yourself, then please take out all the portions of your web sight that says that you are so open minded and willing to listen.

Classic example of misinterpretation. On your part.

Maybe you didn't understand what I meant there. I'm talking about how I don't like going into a discussion with someone whose mind is shut like a trap. I want my words considered. I do not like feeling like I'm going into a discussion that is intended to change my mind, when the other person is not giving me the same benefit of the doubt.

Interpreting another's words totally through a lens is a roadblock to understanding; when I say something and the person says "That is untrue because the Bible says so," I am dealing with a roadblocked person. The person is not willing give due consideration to what I say because it does not fit in with what they already believe. It's not inherent in that statement that I only go into conversations wanting to change people's minds; it doesn't say anything about MY intent at all. When I go into a discussion with someone else, what is the point of doing so if neither of us learns anything?

2."Religion is a good thing to give people purpose and hope, but unfortunately most people don't understand that in essence they're all worshipping the same God."

If we are all worshiping the same God then please tell me why you are so combative toward the people that have different beliefs about God then you.

"Combative," I don't see where. I attack things that logically do not make sense in other people's beliefs, as well as the beliefs in my own umbrella of philosophy that I think are absurd. I'm Pagan, but I know a lot of Pagans who believe things that make me cringe to be considered one of them. I don't attack the people, or their rights to believe those things; I do however think some of the actual things they believe are silly.

My point in the statement you quoted for your "proof" does not say anything about my attitude. My point in saying it is that if everyone who is worshipping "the" one God starts arguing about which one of them is right, it starts to logically fall apart. You can assign different attributes to God, and decide what you think "He" wants, but you can't dispute that IF there is only one and you're worshipping it, then everyone who's worshipping "the" God is worshipping the same one.

If this statement is what you believe then would that not make all of the God worshiping people of the world brothers/sisters. And In many passages in your writing you say that you are not combative, (You have failed to prove that in any way in your writings) if this is true then why wouldn't you instead of trying to protect your beliefs try and persuade them to understand that we are, all brothers/sisters.

I'm unsure of what your point is in talking about "brothers and sisters." I don't believe in ANY conscious God, as I mentioned later on, so I don't think you've solved all the supposed problems in my philosophy by suggesting that this should instead become my mission. Like I said before, people's arguments about God are more focused on their beliefs on what "He" wants them to do, and everyone's got their own little book of "Truth" to wave around backing them up. It'd be pointless to go around telling everyone that they in essence all believe the same thing, because they don't. I didn't extend the example that far.

3. "I don't think that if God exists, "He" is an entity."

I think that this quote provide me with the perfect grounds to say that you have no right or privilege to say anything about what others believe, if you do not know yourself what your beliefs are.

This is kind of where you lose me. To make sense, your statement must be saying that the above quote proves that I don't know what I believe. Where is that?

If I need to spell it out for you to get what I meant, I was only saying that I believe God isn't conscious, while most other people believe "He" is kind of like a human being as far as consciousness and emotions, but instead has lots of superpowers and lives in a special place called Heaven. It seems slightly infantile to think of God that way, especially the way so many people give "Him" the morals of a two-year-old, but that's beside the point here; I'm saying that I don't think God could be conscious the way we are if "He" is really God. I'm not sure where in that you get the idea that I have no right to talk about others' beliefs.

4. "there is no good and evil, but I am pleased to be alive, and I'm not currently longing for Paradise and hoping to shuffle off this mortal coil because this IS essentially my Paradise, the Paradise I've created for myself, with help from other people and other circumstances."

(This is a weak but prominent argument)

You say that there are no good or evil in the world then please explain to me the Disease, Hunger, War, Death, Child abuse, Rapes, Prejudice, torture and all the atrocities that are committed through out this flawed but beautiful world that we live in.

Again. Missed my point totally. How do you do that so effortlessly?

"Evil" indicates consciousness; it indicates that there is a powerful force behind the bad things that happen. "Good," same thing. I don't believe immortal forces like God and the Devil are fighting over our souls or planting alternate "bad" paths to trick us or interfering in our lives. I don't think disease, hunger, war, death, child abuse, rape, prejudice, or torture are caused by "evil." I think they all suck, but ultimately in the macrocosm more people hurt and killed does not equal some kind of victory for the spread of "evil." It's a relative concept, always; something is "evil" because it is not in accordance with our wishes. Ultimately, an earthquake is not "evil" even if it claims many lives; the planet shifts, as it has done for billions of years, and it cannot help that people lived there; it did not shift because it was punishing those who lived there, nor did it notice. It just shifted because that is that part of the planet's nature, be it good or bad for those involved. That is what I mean by "good" and "evil" not existing. PEOPLE on the other hand have intent, but they don't do what they do because they're "evil"; they do things out of greed, selfishness, anger, whatever . . . not because there is "evil," or because Satan is controlling them. Instead of trying to understand what I meant by that relative concept of evil, you decided I was saying "bad things don't happen." Nope.

There is the proof that you asked for, and to answer one of the other questions that you had the audacity to ask. Who am I to comment on you writings? I am an American citizen, and American soldier that , if you have not realized loves and protects the first amendment with a vengeance. I am very disappointed that a person that has so much to say would not understand that simple concept.

Okay, so the fact that I have a lot to say says something about me understanding "this simple concept." I think your e-mail just got more and more convoluted as it went on.

I asked you who you thought you were, because you came out of nowhere to criticize me without even telling me what I supposedly did wrong, acting as if I should just know. And then we find out that at least from my point of view, all your blustering was based in quite frankly your lack of a clue as to what I was talking about.

I still am not sure what it is about your being a soldier who's ready to defend the first Amendment that makes you think I'll excuse you for being a jerk. It doesn't matter who you are or what you feel you've earned; the way you approached me was fairly inexcusable, but you didn't even bother to offer any excuses anyhow. If you have a problem with something I said, you can quote it to me or summarize it for me, and explain why you have a problem with it; I'm actually pretty open to such discussions (but not, as I mentioned, in the face of someone who's talking to me with their mouth open and their ears shut). By all means, if you have a problem with something I've said or the attitude behind it, you can cite it for me and clearly explain why you think it's wrong. If you don't choose to use that approach and prefer just stacking accusations, I'm going to be forced to write you off.

My advice if you want to continue communicating with me (which I doubt) is to cut off the premature assumptions right now. Sometimes you've drawn really wild conclusions about things I've said, and though I've tried to explain where you turned wrong on those few you cited, I have a feeling my answers probably didn't satisfy you, or that there were other problems you had that were not brought up in your e-mail. Whatever I've said, you may be taking the wrong way. Take for example a town where people wear purple if they're rich. Then take a person from that town, transplant that person to a town where there is no such custom, and watch him label everyone wearing purple as an obvious rich person. That's what's happening here: You're taking my signals to mean things they just don't mean in my own context. If you've got a question about something I've said, let me know, and maybe it will even help me refine what I've said so others don't make the same assumptions.

Hope this helps.

~*~iVY