From: V

Message: I have a friend that is 16 and female. Her and her twin were children of parents that died AND adopted children of parents who were/are all in a gang. According to their rules, kids (especially females) are in the gang from birth. Females are considered property in their gang and can be "given" to other gang members or used by the leader, if they disobey then thay can be beaten and my friend has been hospitalized by them. I am very worried about her (and her 14 month old daughter) and she wants out but neither of us know what to do. She is afraid if she runs they will just find her and punish her (she's seen this done) and she fears police involvement because the last time she went to them for help they took her daughter and only got her back by recanting. Now she mistrusts and hates the police. Is there anything that she can do or is she just doomed to this modern day slavery and torture? Are they programs that would provide sanctuary AND allow her to keep her daughter? A sort of, gang-relocation program?

[So some loser sent him the following response:]

From: D
To: V

This is a very dire situation and I sense there are things you haven't shared. I'm usually very diplomatic in my response but in this situation Prayer is needed! Immediately! There are many levels that have to be dealt with in regards to this; Laws, parental rights, and the like. I'm sure there are programs out there and please share more so we can investigate. Know this by the Grace of God we have a prayer team and once I send this to yo I will send out and urgent request to our team.

God Bless,
D

[Oh yes, great idea. Let's answer a request for help with DON'T WORRY MAN, WE'RE ON IT WITH A PRAYER TEAM RIGHT NOW! My friend V had no idea this was a religious organization of any kind, and he was kind of appalled that they would offer help on how to get out of gangs but then turn out to just be people who would pray for you. Figuring they were useless, he didn't respond. But then, unsolicited, another volunteer e-mail answerer contacted him: Bro Mike, who was an even bigger ass.]

From: Bro Mike
To: V
Subject: If You Think Your Teen Is Flirting With Gang Membership--Bro Mike at [organization]

V:

Your friend needs to talk to local authorities. The Feds offer relocation, but only if someone 'flips', provides information on gang crimes that they are interested in.

Also...This is going to be a long one...so you may want to print it off and get a cup of coffee, and your red pen or highlighter for backup.

First of all, you are not dealing with a self-esteem issue. Self esteem and Gangs are not a valid comparison. In truth, you are dealing with a potential crime issue. Gangs operate on crime. They are criminal enterprises. You are NOT dealing with 'West Side Story'. That model for gang activity went over the wall ten years ago. Many cops and law enforcement agencies have not awakened to the reality that thing have 'changed' in gang recruitment.

Second, you, as a parent, are doing everything that you CAN do. However, it appears that the 'crime weed' has gotten into him. He is going to have to make the dermination to 'get it out of him' over the course of time. He is going to have to realize that what he is going into is going to be harmful to him over the long haul.

Gangs NEVER believe in showing the long term consequences of their actions. They ONLY put the emphasis on the 'short term' (the gold, the glitz, and the girls). Teens are naturally curious. When I taught school, and when I served as a Probation Officer for a juvenile court, the curiosity factor is what gets these kids into gangs. Add a slick talking gang recruiter, and you have teens involved in the gang scene.

Suggestions. First, if you and your family are in church, and into the Bible, read Ephesians, Chapter 6 and the Book of Romans. You are in a spiritual battle, and must take the appropriate spiritual remedies. You and your husband must stand against the gang temptation as a unit. If you are divorced, or are unmarried, you need to take inventory of your own spiritual life, and clean up where led by the Lord to do so. If your family is NOT in church, you need to seek out a bible believing church and start attending as a group. Jesus Christ still sets men and women, boys and girls FREE from sin. Pure and simple, gangs are a sin because they encourage, feed upon, ingest, and act out upon evil things. That's the bottom line! These are NOT social organizations. Gangs are CRIMINAL ENTERPRISES!

Another suggestion: Make an appointment to take your son to the local jail, or local prison, or local juvenile detention center. Tours can be offered, to show what the end result would be IF he continues in his criminal ways. Also, check with your local newspaper. There are people in your city who have gone through what your son is going through in the gang scene and have come out in one piece. This person, if you make an appointment, could sit down with your son and talk about the dangers of the life he is getting interested involved with. Teens don't realize, until too late, the gang scene is like a bog. It is smooth and green on top; but once you step onto it, you will be sucked under in rapid fashion.

Gang recruitment is widespread. Just because you 'don't' see them, it does not mean that they are not busy. Those of us in the 'biz' know that gangs operate in urban/suburban/rural areas, many times right under the noses of local law enforcement because they are often naive as to their existence. They often overlook white teens & gang involvement, because they overcompensate for Black and Hispanic teens being involved in gang activity. The 'assumption' is that white teens can't get involved in gang activity.

Ever hear of the Skinheads? But that's another story.

Until your child commits their first crime to be 'accepted' into the gang, he is on the outside looking in. Once he does commit a crime, and/or is jumped in (does initiation) then he will be 'in'. Monitor his social contacts and don't give him so much in the way of material items. This is how gangs communicate with each other.

Gangs are more widespread than many believe. The gang culture has already made inroads into the music, sports, and entertainment scene. Evil is being called good, and good is being called Evil. You are going to have to empower him to make the choices necessary to 'shun' the people who are into this stuff. If you have taught him to stay away from drugs, alcohol, and tobacco, then you will have to teach him to stay away from gangs and pray that he accept the message.

One last thing. It matters little what 'profession' you may be involved in. Teacher, Police Officers, even Lawyers have children who are tied up in the gang scene. It is the family who is affluent who gets tied up in this stuff. Gangs have a mindset different from the average parent, poor parent, or affluent parent. Adults can be looking RIGHT AT a gang member, and not see them. Again, those of us in the 'biz' know what to ask, and how to observe. The average parent can do all that you are doing, and still miss the 'turn'...meaning that it is up to the teen to have the guts to turn down gang membership.

As a matter of fact, the reason why gangs are so widespread in suburban and rural areas is that the white, affluent families in many of these areas 'believe' that it is an 'urban' problem. Thanks to MTV and the Internet, more than 70 percent of Rap/Hip Hop CDs and MP3s are CONSUMED by WHITES...especially by TEEN WHITE MALES. I can go through small town America and spot the bangers. Meanwhile, the local cops can't spot them, because they don't want to see them.

[Organization] is a ministry. We offer advice, from a biblical perspective. However, you, dear parent, are going to have to make some decisions about the life of your teen. If you have any other questions, please feel free to email. We can recommend one of our team to come and do an anti-presentation in your community. Of course, there will be fees involved, and the member who is often closest will be the one coming in to make the presentation.

Bro Mike

[So . . . basically a WILDLY inappropriate form letter. Which calls my male friend V "dear parent" even though he was writing on behalf of a friend. Which keeps calling the person in question "your son" and "him" even though he was clear that he was talking about an unrelated girl friend. Which says a bunch of vaguely racist stuff assuming he's answering a white affluent parent with a troubled son who's *gasp* listening to rap. And which chastises this imaginary parent for possibly not going to the right church and having this that or the other emotional issues. I read the mail, appalled, got my friend V's permission to contact this guy (though I didn't tell him that I was doing so or what I was saying), and fired off a mail.]

To: Bro Mike
From: Ivy

Hello. This e-mail is for "Bro Mike."

I am writing in response to a mail exchanged between you (or someone affiliated with you) and my friend V. He does not know I am writing, but he showed me the mail you sent him and I have something to say to you.

I don't know if this is going to be read or addressed because you obviously did not read HIS mail very well. But I think there are some very serious issues about how you handle people who ask for your help, and you need to be told about the mistakes you're making.

My friend V sent a form request on behalf of a girl he knows who is unwillingly in a gang at age 16. She did not choose the gang; she was born into it, and wishes to escape it. He wrote to you asking if you knew any resources for her.

Your response was to send him an obviously clipped and pasted all-purpose document that did not fit his situation. This is at best rude and at worst borderline obscene behavior.

He made it very clear that he was asking for help for a teenage female friend who'd been in her gang since birth through no fault of her own. Your response included the following suggestions:

--Talk to your son in a preventative way about gangs;
--Make sure you and your husband take him to church;
--Don't make the mistake of thinking white people don't have gang problems too;
--Realize it's NOT a self-esteem issue or a situation like West Side Story;
--Pray a lot.

Do you see how this is really inappropriate? I withhold judgment on the spiritual side of things, because I know you are a Bible-based organization and you believe prayer and church attendance are a part of the solution. But I don't think it's acceptable behavior to communicate with a MALE FRIEND of a FEMALE gang member through a form letter that is obviously designed to be sent to a FEMALE MOTHER of a MALE gang member.

My friend V was not asking for people to give him family or religious advice, and if he was so inclined I'm sure he would be perfectly capable of praying for his friend's sake without the assistance of the prayer team whose services were offered. V was asking for Earthly assistance. He asked straight out whether there were programs or women's shelters that you could help him locate for this friend of his about whom he is very worried. Your response was to address him like he was a mom worried about her son maybe *entering* a gang, and of course to lecture him about the place of Jesus in his own life. This is totally uncalled for, unhelpful, and ultimately offensive. Do you only have one all-purpose letter that's supposed to fit everyone, and you can't be bothered to look any deeper?

I don't want to speculate any further about your lack of motivation and dedication to this cause based on your response to his plea. It'll only come out nasty and my purpose is not to offend you or make you think I'm insulting you deliberately. But I personally feel insulted on his behalf, and the purpose of my mail is to find out why his mail to you along the lines of "Hi, I'm Mr. So-and-So, my female teenage friend needs help" was answered by your mail along the lines of "Hi, Mrs. So-and-So, this is how you can help your teenage son!"

If you feel like shooting off an inappropriate one-size-fits-all e-mail is the same as helping people in need, you have a whole lot to learn about compassion. I really want an explanation.

~*ivY

[And of course, Bro Mike comes back with some of the most disgusting condescension I've ever seen.]

Bro Mike on the night desk at this end, and a copy of this is being forwarded to the front Day desk.

[Organization--misspelled by Bro Mike] is based on Christian principle and biblical truth as a means of addressing gang issues. If V has a problem with what was sent, then that is V's problem, and not yours. V represented on the form that V was 18 or older. V did NOT represent whether she were a she or a he, or if the problem involved was of a personal nature.

Anytime a third person gets involved in a conversation there will be problems. Also, you may not like what was said, or how it was said, or the information included, but that is none of 'your' business, as it was a two way conversation, and you did not need to be a part of it then, nor do you need to be a part of it now.

I would also suggest that you try a little of the old time religion yourself. The bitterness in your soul to get 'upset' by another person's issue. Nitpicking does not become you. Neither does flaming a ministry.

If you know so much about V, and are right there with V, what help did Y-O-U offer...other than complain about a written response? How much of your time and money did you invest? If you want to get religious about it, to complain about the way someone helps...and you have not helped...isn't that being a little in the way of hypocritical?

[Organization] can't please everyone, nor can every answer suffice to someone's standard. However, Ivy, to crab about what someone 'has' done, when you have yet to prove what you 'can' do, is a bit on the childish side. And, to complain about religion, when you have 'In God We Trust' on all your money, I'm sure that you haven't burned that money because it was 'religious' in definition.

I am sure that the front office has a copy of the original letter that was NOT sent by you, but by V and, if you want more of a response, you can address the website. Have a great day, In Jesus Christ.

Bro Mike

[Misspelled organization] is based on Christian principle and biblical truth as a means of addressing gang issues.

I thought it was "[correct spelling]," not "[misspelled version]."

If V has a problem with what was sent, then that is V's problem, and not yours.

He had such a problem with it that he didn't even bother to reply and was so put off by your advice that he had to go elsewhere. I on the other hand thought if I brought it to your attention that you answered a sincere request for help with a form letter that didn't even apply, it might help you help someone else in the future. Of course, instead of taking the constructive criticism and realizing you were wrong, you just accused me of being bitter and told ME to start following your values. I guess it's too much to expect of a person who supposedly upholds Christian values to admit that he made a mistake, eh?

V represented on the form that V was 18 or older. V did NOT represent whether she were a she or a he, or if the problem involved was of a personal nature.

That's your excuse for why he said "I have this female friend who needs help" and you said "Oh, you and your husband should do this to help your son"? It's amazing to me that you can't even look at yourself and see that you wronged someone.

Anytime a third person gets involved in a conversation there will be problems. Also, you may not like what was said, or how it was said, or the information included, but that is none of 'your' business, as it was a two way conversation, and you did not need to be a part of it then, nor do you need to be a part of it now.

Ahh, you just don't like it that I criticized your approach. You know you were wrong. Sad that you can't admit it.

I would also suggest that you try a little of the old time religion yourself. The bitterness in your soul to get 'upset' by another person's issue. Nitpicking does not become you. Neither does flaming a ministry.

"Flaming" is an immature and pointless attack. I didn't attack, but you can't see that because you're too busy boo-hooing that someone criticized you. Afraid you know nothing about me or my religion, but that is not the issue and I made that clear. Why would you judge my soul as bitter for letting you know you made a mistake? Are you afraid to learn? Just can't admit that you made a mistake?

If you know so much about V, and are right there with V, what help did Y-O-U offer...other than complain about a written response? How much of your time and money did you invest?

Plenty of hours, and no amount of money could help this person if she isn't able to be given a safe place to go and needs professional help.

I complained about your written response because it was completely inappropriate. That doesn't mean I didn't help. That means I have a problem with your half-baked attempt to pretend like you could.

If you want to get religious about it, to complain about the way someone helps...and you have not helped...isn't that being a little in the way of hypocritical?

I didn't "want to get religious about it." I specifically said that I was leaving that out of my comments about you, reserving my judgment. You're not very good at that. Yes, I complained about how you helped, because YOU SENT MY FRIEND A LETTER THAT WAS COMPLETELY IMPERSONAL and not helpful at all, and yet you are setting yourself up as an organization that will selflessly help folks in trouble. How much is it helping others if you just paste the same canned response even if it doesn't apply? It seems to me you didn't even read his letter. Why sit in the chair if you're not going to do the job?

And it amuses me how bad you are at arguing points. Trying to shame me for being so hypocritical as to judge your (lack of) help when I have not helped is assuming I haven't helped. And again, you know nothing about my role in this, but you're pretending to. Just like you're pretending you were in any position to help my friend.

[Organization] can't please everyone, nor can every answer suffice to someone's standard. However, Ivy, to crab about what someone 'has' done, when you have yet to prove what you 'can' do, is a bit on the childish side.

I didn't ask [organization] to please everyone. But can you imagine the shock and pain of reaching out to someone in your organization and getting back an impersonal letter that's designed for a parent of a teen who's in a different situation than his friend is in? You told him he as a parent (which he is not) should encourage his son (which he does not have) to avoid gangs (which isn't the point as this girl was born into the gang) through education and religious community (which isn't your business).

And, to complain about religion, when you have 'In God We Trust' on all your money, I'm sure that you haven't burned that money because it was 'religious' in definition.

Go 'head and quote back to me the part where I "complained about religion," I'll listen. You keep demonstrating that you're not very good at this "reading what someone's writing to you" thing at all, though.

And I know that many people who follow the church's ways are unaware of this, but "In God We Trust" was put on our money less than half a century ago in a fear-based response to McCarthyism. Our nation's original motto was "E Pluribus Unum," which is Latin for "Out of many, ONE." Interpret this how you see fit. "One nation under God" was inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance at the same time, by the way. It wasn't there when the country was founded.

But that's neither here nor there.

Do yourself a favor and read people's mail carefully before you paste one form letter to everyone. You're not helping when you do that and I was trying to tell you how offensive it was in our case. If you can't take this criticism offered in the name of avoiding YOUR MISTAKE in the future, you are not fit to sit at your position. You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to attack me for criticizing you when I did it for your own good. What a nasty, petty little person you must be to be unable to see when you are wrong in the name of *helping* people. . . .

To: Ivy
From: Bro Mike

Oh, I see...you are one of those 'click and pasters' that you so aptly 'hate', because you have to use colors and such to 'prove' your point?

Nevertheless, it goes to the front office as well. And, you do have some typeos yourself. Your 16 minutes of fame have expired.

NEXT!

Bro Mike

Oh, I see...you are one of those 'click and pasters' that you so aptly 'hate', because you have to use colors and such to 'prove' your point?

I don't know what you mean by that. I didn't click and paste anything, and my AOL mail is not very consistent with keeping colors how they ought to be. I don't know why that makes you judge me. I also would love you to find me where I said I hate click and pasters. Normally when a person puts quotes around a word, it means they're quoting the other person. Go ahead--I dare ya!--find the phrase in my e-mail where I said I "hate" anything. I don't use the word "hate." I'll leave that to you.

No, I don't have to use colors to prove my point. I did just fine, on the strength of the words themselves, actually--feel free to find fault with something I said and address the issue rather than the color I wrote it in. Are you feeling so inferior because of my words that you are attacking the colors I wrote them in? More and more you've shown me that you're unable to take honest criticism. Me, I prefer when someone will be kind enough to tell me when I am making a mistake. You can dish it out but you can't take it (and you're really not very good at dishing it out, actually--because you don't even read and try to understand their point).

Do you really want to help people? Ask yourself. Do you want to help people, or do you want to be right?

I suggest you take the advice of your religious institutions and indeed of your savior himself and ask for forgiveness when you have transgressed. I have not seen one word of apology from you for what you have done. No acknowledgment of your mistake. Even just a little "oops, my bad--I pasted the wrong canned response, thought you were someone's mom, sorry!" would have sufficed. But you're too busy trying to make everything into an attack. Everything I have said has been an attempt to increase understanding and compassion. But you can't see that because you are too blinded by your own righteousness. This is so sad.

I'll tell you this: If ANY attempt to tell you that you did something wrong equals "flaming" in your eyes, then that means you have placed yourself in a position of unchallengeable correctness and you think you can do no wrong. False prophets anyone? Sound familiar? I really hope that your attitude is NOT representative of your organization. Was there any way I could have told you that you made a mistake without making you feel like you were being attacked? I thought I was pretty civil.

Nevertheless, it goes to the front office as well.

. . . Is that something I should fear? You're gonna tell on me? Or perhaps like your disclaimer says you'll turn me over to Jesus Christ in prayer if I bother you too much. It must be nice to have a god as your own personal lynching machine. "Dear Lord, I pray that you will smite this person who has been so naughty as to say one of our brothers made a mistake even though it was quite obvious that he did. This is and has always been beside the point. Please make sure she goes to Hell and suffers forever for her crime of trying to wake another person up to his own sins. Amen." But I digress.

And, you do have some typeos yourself. Your 16 minutes of fame have expired.

Find one! You can't. Your bluffing is another shameless show of your inability to take criticism. You just turn the attack back on me and I guess that makes you feel good. Not a very good quality for a Christian to have. (Or a person, in fact. Of any religion. It's silly.) I suppose I am to understand that all of this is done in the holy name of your Lord, as well. Funny, I didn't think he was like this. I think you just told a lie, brother. If you haven't, back up your accusation. Don't try to talk the talk if you can't walk the walk. I'm an editor--a professional in the ways of the written word--and I know there wasn't anything wrong with my e-mail.

Incidentally, "typos" does not have an E in it. It is short for "typographical," and that also has no E in it.

I'll be willing to forgive your offensive behavior if you can admit you were wrong right from the start. Or do you still think your mail was perfectly appropriate to send to my friend? How would you like it if you ordered a cake from a bakery in the shape of a boat and asked it to read "Happy Birthday Grandpa Fred!" and it came back in the shape of a duck reading "Happy Anniversary Aunt Sharon!" Would you expect the baker to shout back at you something like, "Well at least it's a cake and what do you care as long as it tastes good and after all did *you* put in the work and effort to make this cake no-I-don't-think-so-SO-THERE!"? That's what you're doing here. Denying your responsibility and also picking a fight with me and trying to insult me, not to mention lying and playing the holier-than-thou card.

Ironic that the offer of forgiveness comes first from the wronged party, no? Ironic that I don't claim to represent a group with a religious agenda, no? Practice what you preach. I reserve judgment on everyone I meet, but one of the few things I can't reconcile within myself is accepting the behavior of a person who acts inconsistently with his own professed values. Just like you.

There is a website called dictionary.com if you have any trouble understanding some of the words in this mail.

~*ivY

To: Ivy
From: Bro Mike

Writing in colors, nor use of flames, slams, etc does not prove your point. It only proves that you are butting into a conversation that does not concern you UNLESS you are V, and are writing under another screen name (which is fraud...go on google and look that up); or are just a bored teenager who is looking for some kicks; or are someone from one of the 'plant' websites.

Ivy...IF that is your name, are you realllllly helping yourself or your friend? Have you ever given advice to someone? Have you ever received advice from someone? Have you given right advice and someone didn't take it? You, for some reason, are on the 'God Haters' kick...

You aren't mad about the advice; you are mad about the fact that Jesus Christ was mentioned as the way out, AND that the fact that the advice contained information about parents.

Just remember; Jesus Christ DIED for you, and He ROSE on the third day, and He IS ALIVE for evermore. We can keep this up...but the bottom line is that you are on a Highway to HELL based upon your attitude and your comments.

This is about YOUR soul, BABY! What will YOU do IF one of those gangbangers BLASTS you away? Gangbanging is a RELIGION!!!! The ONLY way that you counter a religion is with TRUE religion, that being Christianity...AND Christianity is NOT ONLY a RELIGION, it is also ROOTED in a RELATIONSHIP with JESUS CHRIST.

Tomorrow is NOT promised Hebrews, Chapter 9.

Might I ask you a question? How OLD are you? How do you treat YOUR parents? Actually, it is quite refreshing to meet someone on line who has the finger skills.

Have YOU ever given advice on line? Has anyone replied to you about your emails? [Organization] is one of the most SUCCESSFUL anti-gang ministries ON the Internet. I'm honored to be seclected to be a volunteer for that site.

Let's see you STEP UP and volunteer for a similiar website...that is, IF you are over 21, which is one of the requirements for THIS particular arena.

Don't like my responses? Tell V to write to one of the teens on the site. Better yet, GET a phone book and have V CALL a local law enforcement agency. You DO know what a phone book looks like, don't you?

Then...get out a Bible and read what God is saying about you. His advice is a lot more important than mine. You have to either turn, or burn, Baby!

Bro Mike
Write Back When You Get The Guts!

PS: Hope ya got airbags!

To: Bro Mike
From: Ivy

Writing in colors, nor use of flames, slams, etc does not prove your point.

It's funny how you're so hung up on what color I write in. I guess that's because you can't find real arguments to the words themselves. This is a waste of my time, because you're about as bad at making a point as you are at giving advice.

You're so obsessed with the color of my e-mail that you can't look at its CONTENT or address it appropriately. Your response is the equivalent of trying to win an argument about politics by calling one of the candidates ugly. This is a common misdirection technique used by those with weak or nonexistent arguing platforms. You fit the bill nicely.

Not to mention I don't have a "point" to prove. I stated a fact: You gave inappropriate advice to my friend. I also stated my purpose: I want an explanation for why you chose to do that to him. There isn't any "point" to argue about because these things happened and they are ironed out nicely in my first mail to you. I'd say read it again and answer if you can, but I know by now that you can't admit you committed a grievous error in sending such a letter. It's all the fault of everyone *else*.

I didn't flame or slam you. I politely pointed out that you gave inappropriate advice to my friend. You refuse to address the issue.

It only proves that you are butting into a conversation that does not concern you UNLESS you are V, and are writing under another screen name (which is fraud...go on google and look that up); or are just a bored teenager who is looking for some kicks; or are someone from one of the 'plant' websites.

You are so very suspicious and angry. You are not having a "conversation" with V. You sent him a form letter when he sent a query for help--and it wasn't even the right form letter. How could you send such a thing to someone? I've asked you to defend this or explain it or at least apologize for it. You don't, and furthermore you attack me, which means I already know the answer. You're obviously ashamed of yourself, but can't admit it.

I am not V. I am Ivy. I think it's kind of pathetic how you're so filled with suspicion that you're already lecturing me for "fraud" just in case I happen to be him. With all your wild accusations, I guess you're trying to cover all bases to show you know what's really going on, and all you're proving is how hilariously lost and unsuited for this you are.

I also don't know what "plant websites" are or what you're trying to accuse me of with that. And finally, I find it puzzling that you think I'm "a bored teenager looking for kicks" when nothing I've said has been to get a kick out of anything. I've told you over and over what my issue was. It was with YOU giving a form letter to my friend addressing him as if he's a worried mom. That's disrespectful, to reply to someone as if one letter will be appropriate for everyone. I really hope you don't get paid for your position, because if it's not a volunteer thing, someone is really getting ripped off having to pay you to send form letters to people when you can't even do that right.

Ivy...IF that is your name, are you realllllly helping yourself or your friend? Have you ever given advice to someone? Have you ever received advice from someone? Have you given right advice and someone didn't take it?

What's with all these silly questions? They don't reveal anything. I have given and taken plenty of advice in my life, and I don't know what this has to with anything. None of this is supposed to be about me. Can you be mature and realize that I criticized YOUR choice of sending my friend an inappropriate letter? Can you please face it and talk about that instead of saying "well I bet *you* haven't given any advice ever! Somehow this justifies me giving crappy advice that doesn't fit the person I'm giving it to, so there!" Come on now. Look at yourself.

You, for some reason, are on the 'God Haters' kick...

I already said this in my last mail, but I haven't used the word "hate" (except to address the places where you are unjustly claiming I used it), and I certainly haven't made any judgments about what you believe about God. I think you decided that any criticism of what YOU did must somehow be evidence that I hate God. Last time I checked you weren't God, and you're demonstrating more and more tonight that you're not a very good choice to speak for him. I actually made a very specific point in my first mail to make it clear that I was not attacking the religious aspect of your organization. I will quote from my first mail to show you, because unlike you, I can actually back up what I am saying:

"I withhold judgment on the spiritual side of things, because I know you are a Bible-based organization and you believe prayer and church attendance are a part of the solution. But I don't think it's acceptable behavior to communicate with a MALE FRIEND of a FEMALE gang member through a form letter that is obviously designed to be sent to a FEMALE MOTHER of a MALE gang member."

That is from my first mail to you. Do you see how respectful I was of your approach? I object to your sending a form letter that not only didn't help my friend but made it clear that his mail wasn't *read* (or at least wasn't understood). What is your purpose if you're not going to READ the mails? You're not giving advice online if you're pasting the "here's how to help your son, dear parent" e-mail to everyone. Not everyone who writes is a mom writing about her son. Is this so hard to understand? And you still won't admit you made a mistake?

If you would like to respond in kind and quote the parts of my mails that show that I am on a "God-Haters kick," go for it. You can't just make accusations and expect to sit back and be praised for it--or for anyone to take you seriously, for that matter. Are you that determined to make yourself look like a fool? Then keep on pulling all-purpose accusations out of the air. Decide in your tiny mind that everyone who has a problem with anything you do must be doing it because they hate God.

You aren't mad about the advice; you are mad about the fact that Jesus Christ was mentioned as the way out, AND that the fact that the advice contained information about parents.

Are you not listening? You say I am mad that Jesus was mentioned as the way out. You say I am mad that the advice "contained information about parents." Do you have access to your sent mails? Would you like to have a look at what you sent to V? It addressed HIM as "dear parent," told him to go to church with his "husband" and his "son," and told him among other things that education and prevention were the best way to keep his supposed son out of the line of fire. I'll say it again: He contacted you as a concerned FRIEND of a GIRL he knows. Why would I be mad if the mail just "contained information about parents"? It was talking to him like his situation was the role of a concerned mother of a gang-involved son! Are you STILL not getting that? Do I have to spell it out? I already had, I thought. Here it is again: He's not a parent. You addressed him as "dear parent." The gang-involved person is a girl. You repeatedly addressed this person as "your son." (And this IS a problem because since he is NOT her parent he does not have the jurisdiction over her that a mother would have, and you talked to him in the letter as if he obviously had that jurisdiction.) The gang-involved person was born into the gang and she wants to leave it but the leaders feel they own her. Your advice for this situation was to attend an educational presentation about gangs' existence--which of course could be arranged for in her community for a fee. I think this girl knows very well how gangs operate, having been an unwilling part of one for all of her sixteen years and having been repeatedly beaten and raped by its members. You are making LIGHT of all this by pretending this is about me and about you. How sad for you that you are so ruled by your pride when your purpose in this job is to help people in trouble! And how doubly sad for the people who will come to you for help only to get that same "dear parent" letter even if their question had nothing to do with how to help a son. Your mail, despite the fact that you think it has good advice for that situation, does NOTHING to help this girl get out of her abusive situation.

Just remember; Jesus Christ DIED for you, and He ROSE on the third day, and He IS ALIVE for evermore. We can keep this up...but the bottom line is that you are on a Highway to HELL based upon your attitude and your comments.

"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. " --Romans 2:1

You can say what you want about me, but you have yet to answer for or apologize for any of the original sins I listed in my first attempt to contact you.

Might I ask you a question? How OLD are you?

I will be thirty years old in five days. Was this a veiled (well, not very veiled) accusation that I'm probably a little kid? It's usually the immature people who try to act like age is important in these matters. Yes, you're talking to a grown-up, Mike.

How do you treat YOUR parents?

Considering I don't live with them because I'm a grown woman, I'm not sure what you're trying to accuse me of here, but I am on good terms with both of them and am regularly involved in both their lives. My mother and I chatted yesterday and I'm seeing my father tomorrow. Were you looking for more ammunition or trying really hard to dig up some dirt or shame on my end--ASSUMING IT WOULD BE THERE? I have nothing to be ashamed of, so I don't know why you're slinging these questions at me. You are so very, very bad at this.

Actually, it is quite refreshing to meet someone on line who has the finger skills.

I don't know what that means.

Have YOU ever given advice on line? Has anyone replied to you about your emails? [Organization] is one of the most SUCCESSFUL anti-gang ministries ON the Internet. I'm honored to be seclected to be a volunteer for that site.

Oh good, I see you're saying "volunteer." At least no one has to pay you for this appalling excuse for advice you're offering to people. And no, no one has written me back on your site, except you, if that's what you're asking. I don't think I understand the question. You need to learn to make your writing a little clearer. Like I said, you're kind of bad at this.

I was an online chat host and mentoring volunteer here at America Online from 1997 to 2002. Obviously you are trying to grind my face in your possession of this position, expecting that I have nothing of comparable status to show you that I'm worthy of my complaints. It doesn't matter whether I've given advice online, but I have. Regardless, I don't see why I would have had to do a job like yours in order to find fault with the way you're doing it. Do you still not see why I have a problem with a good friend being given a letter that doesn't apply to him, and do you still have the gall to claim everything in that letter was appropriate to send to him?

Let's see you STEP UP and volunteer for a similiar website...that is, IF you are over 21, which is one of the requirements for THIS particular arena.

::smiles:: I actually think it's kinda cute how you're trying to shame me here. If I was under 21 it wouldn't make a difference; my words should speak for themselves (and they do, but apparently not to the close-minded like yourself), and whether I could do your job does not have anything to do with whether I think you do it well. I don't have to be a chef in order to judge a meal as inedible. Similarly, I cannot swallow your attitude, and on top of that I AM a chef, so to speak. But I am not and never have been involved with any site that involves gang issues, and that is why V *wrote* to you guys. Because we were indeed hoping to find experts. Instead, we got you.

Don't like my responses? Tell V to write to one of the teens on the site.

. . . I guess you must not be familiar with the workings of your own site. He sent a form in as a plea for help. He had no control over who answered him. And I don't see how V writing to a "teen on the site" is going to help if they don't answer his specific questions--the ones you ignored. I actually don't think you have the ability to help people in V's friend's situation. You are incompetent if you think sending an all-purpose form letter (and refusing to admit it might not fit everyone!) is a good way to offer counseling. If you don't know the answer, refer him to someone who does!

Better yet, GET a phone book and have V CALL a local law enforcement agency. You DO know what a phone book looks like, don't you?

::shakes head:: My goodness, you are so angry, young man! Why do you have such an abusive attitude? Do you think Jesus is proud of you for the way you're acting? I'll just bet. Turn the other cheek and all that--sounds like you need a time-out!

V mentioned in his comment (which I guess you still didn't go back and read, even after all this) that his friend who is in trouble mistrusts the police because they were instrumental in taking her child away from her at one point. He contacted you because law enforcement IS the obvious solution and he could not convince her to get them involved. She might have been able to take an alternate solution, but you gave none (well, except for "take your son to church" and "talk to your son about gangs as a preventative measure" and whatnot, none of which applied).

Then...get out a Bible and read what God is saying about you. His advice is a lot more important than mine. You have to either turn, or burn, Baby!

Gosh, your attitude toward me is so refreshingly full of love! As we all know, "turn or burn, Baby!" is a great way to make people see the love in your belief system. My goodness, I'm actually starting to get a laugh or two out of how positively *comically* bad you are at all of this. You have failed so miserably in this particular case of supposedly trying to help those in need, and all you can do is bark at me to read the Bible when you don't even . . . know . . . what . . . I . . . believe.

Write Back When You Get The Guts!

. . . Have you ever gotten the feeling from any of my messages that I am afraid to write to you? In case you don't remember, I started it.

PS: Hope ya got airbags!

I don't know what that means. I don't drive.

~*ivY

To: Ivy
From: Bro Mike

Well, its just too bad that you really don't understand. Why don't YOU use some of your bile to help V on your OWN dime and time.

No matter what anyone says to you, your posts get longer and longer, and shallower and shallower. Your linguistic skills don't deal with the bottom line concerning your own soul!

Mike

To: Mike
From: Ivy

Well, its just too bad that you really don't understand. Why don't YOU use some of your bile to help V on your OWN dime and time.

"Bile" notwithstanding, you don't know what I have done to help him and his friend, so you should not pretend to know.

No matter what anyone says to you, your posts get longer and longer, and shallower and shallower. Your linguistic skills don't deal with the bottom line concerning your own soul!

No, not what "anyone" says. What YOU say. If you'd stop making blanket statements and assumptions for a second, maybe you'd see the issue at the very beginning of this is that you put yourself in a position to help people and then you send them letters that don't make any sense instead of trying to help. And even up to this last mail, you haven't said a word about the issue I raised in my FIRST mail, which was all about YOU and the MISTAKE you made.

The bottom line is not and never was "my soul." The bottom line was that apparently you are ever so devoted to staffing this "night desk" of yours just in case someone should need the wrong form letter sent to them in the middle of the night. If you're jealous of my linguistic skills or you think I'm puffing myself up over them, you're missing the point. But you already did that when you took a volunteer position that was designed to help folks in need and you pervert your duty to others and to yourself by doing such a poor job in "counseling" that you can't even send someone the right form letter. I don't think counseling should be done by form letters, but on top of that to add insult to injury you send the wrong one?

Yes, that is and has always been the reason I wrote you. Not to talk to you about my life or my faults or the problems you perceive with my soul. If you'd stop judging for a moment and listen, maybe we could both stop wasting our time . . . but I think it is impossible for you to stop judging others and look back at yourself. You ARE the one who made a mistake here. And you DO continue to make it worse by refusing to admit it.

~*ivY

[And this was where it got hilarious. The amount of disgusting glee as he pats himself on the back for what he thinks is DIRT about me is on a level I have never seen before or since.]

Hey Ivy:

The wonderful thing about the Internet is the following; it is Sooooooooooo vast that eventually, everything comes back to a dock, somewhere.

Had the chance to check you out on the WWW. Sad. Saw your 'negative one' site. Art is not bad, but it does need some work. And, saw your interest on another site about witchcraft.

BINGO!

No WONDER you don't play well. You've got several demons inhabiting your body and your mind provided by Satan himself.

Now, Ivy...let Bro Mike school you on a few things: #1, I've got a few folk that I know that are coming out of witchcraft, or, have been over the years. High Priestesses, Dabblers, what have you. They have been set free by the POWER and the BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST.

#2, I've got a few folk who don't really care for me, and the fact that I am a Christian. Do I really care that you don't 'like' me? Based upon your profile, you are the one with the 'thin skin' because you are into spell casting and the 'ritual' thing. When you mess with a Christian who is actually on the job for God, like the folk at the website, it could have VERY harmful repercussions. I am in prayer for you; and others are in prayer for you as well.

WE...that US...here at [organization] don't WANT to see you go to HELL for being a witch! Based on what I have seen OF your writing, and your stuff floating on LINE, you are a professing WITCH. Black magic or White magic, I'm...guessing white magic side.

Both sides of the same deadly coin.

What tipped me off? Well, let's just say HE was the HOLY SPIRIT!!!!! When someone 'complains' too much about a non issue, PLUS they have DOK disease (Diarhea of the keys....ROTFL), its time to do a prayer and background check. And...the Holy Ghost has the best check out system on the enemies of the cross.

You are negative because you have made that choice. Just like you have chosen to be bitter. IT SELLS for Y-O-U! IVY...you've been BUSTED my little witch, or witche. Now that it has been revealed (and the fact that there are folk of the law enforcement variety looking for you for your PAST crimes on the WWW) I just ask that you put away your rituals and book of shadows, and get a BIBLE and REPENT of your SINS and TAKE JESUS CHRIST as LORD and SAVIOR.

If you want a REAL fight? Renounce SATAN and SEE how much he'll 'love' you when you turn your back on him.

As always;
Bro Mike
[Organization] Night Desk
Thanks for playing...
BTW...yes, I did say WITCH!

[And then for some reason he sent a second mail because he just couldn't get over how excited he was to have, uh . . . "busted" me?]

Dear Ivy:

It is laughable to read your webpages, complaint files, and such. I'd almost forgotten how funny witches and dictators could be. Bound by rage and anger. Can't smile unless someone is suffering. Complaining at the drop of a hat. Enjoys tearing the wings off of flies. That search of the WWW on you REALLY turned up some information that brought laughter to a dull afternoon.

Oh, PLEASE write some more slams, flames, and such. I crave the laughter. Acts 16:52. LOOK IT UP!!!!!

Anyway Witch Grrrrl; those demons infesting your soul should be quite stirred up by now.

"OMG...somebody I don't even know KNOWS about ME???"

If you keep on coming back, Jesus Christ will be presented to you; if you try attacking [organization] or other such endeavors, you may 'get away' for a while, BUT you will be placed on the short list of God's post office.

And...it is NOT fun, to fall into the hands of an angry God.

Ah, you've been amusing. Been a while since I have tangled with a bonefide Witch. But, it was good spiritual exercise. In the words of Tom Cruise from "The Firm"; 'They ACTUALLY made me STUDY the LAW!'

I KNOW that we'll hear from you later; and my bosses at the site will likely contact you too!

NO ONE wants to see you go to Hell! A bad attitude is JUST as much sin as WITCHCRAFT.

In Jesus' Name;
Bro Mike

PS: YOUR advice on writing and artwork is better than MY advice on Jesus Christ? My source is not man; YOURS is! As a PUBLISHED WRITER I know the game...and the owner of the game is CHRIST!

PSS: And what are YOU doing to make life better for people OTHER than complaining??? I bet you are a hoot at home and on your job.

"If God Can Get It THROUGH You; He'll Get It TO You!" --E.V. Hill

[And then he started going around to a bunch of my other sites and sending in weird comments through the forms. They were irrelevant to the content of the rants.]

Form-sent comment 1: You can't take folk being critical of you? Who made you Baronness of the Universe. No wonder AOL has so many open files on you.

Get your life right with Christ, please. Otherwise, you will be spending the rest of your life crying because someone pissed in your cornflakes!

Bro Mike

Form-sent commnt 2:

Ivy, it is sad. You just need to renounce your sins, and witchcraft, and book of shadows, and see what Jesus Christ has to offer. I may be a nut, but I'm on the right bolt! Bro Mike

[So, this was my response to him.]

Had the chance to check you out on the WWW. Sad. Saw your 'negative one' site. Art is not bad, but it does need some work. And, saw your interest on another site about witchcraft.

. . . Are you under the impression that I was trying to hide who I am from you? I use this e-mail address all over the Internet. If I wanted to hide anything about myself from you, I simply would have contacted you from an address that I don't have published. I don't know why you're getting such ridiculous glee from having looked me up on the Internet and stalked my websites for ammunition, but I'm not ashamed of anything you found. Why would I put anything on the Internet that I didn't want known? Are you that clueless?

BINGO! No WONDER you don't play well. You've got several demons inhabiting your body and your mind provided by Satan himself.

Despite your inability to leave personal politics out of this, I will continue to do so and not get into this with you. I never brought up religion with you and I don't want to talk about that. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you aren't willing to address any of the problems I found with your communication with my friend, so we don't really have a reason to talk anymore.

You can't accept that you were wrong. If you truly wish to help anyone, you must ask yourself the following questions:

1. Am I listening honestly? (You demonstrated that you did not/cannot.)
2. Am I offering advice that can help this person? (You can't do this if you don't listen.)
3. Am I actually fit to be in this position? (What do you DO in your counseling position if all you've shown me is that you can send an inappropriate form letter to a person in need?)

Yes, I keep coming back to this issue because it is the reason I wrote to you in the first place. In your religion, people are supposed to hate the sin and love the sinner. You don't have the right to judge me for what you perceive to be evil. You can give me advice and try to show me what you think is the correct way, but this should be done in love and you are not doing that. Your attitude is and always has been "Ah-HAH! I will GET YOU! I will WIN!" And . . . you're trying to "win" against someone who isn't interested in playing your game at all. Also, the approach is not WORKING--accusing me in such a confrontational way is NOT going to "bring me to Christ," and you already KNOW that, so I can only conclude that you are doing it because it makes you feel righteous. That is so sick and sad.

By your definition I am a confused Satan-worshipping freak who needs a good dose of Jesus. By my definition you are a close-minded dogmatic sheep who lets fear and peer pressure rule his life. But I didn't make religion the issue, yet you can't force yourself to leave that alone. I CAN! Out of respect for you, even though I do NOT agree with your beliefs, I reserved judgment, did not use offensive language, and only pointed out the problems with your mail to my friend V that were inappropriate regardless of beliefs. (For instance, I didn't say it was inappropriate to suggest a person in trouble take their family to church, putting aside what *I* think about church. I did, however, say it was inappropriate to suggest this as part of the solution when V is not part of the family of the girl who is in trouble, nor is he her parent or guardian. Do you see where this is going?)

If your next mail to me does not make some attempt to apologize for or explain your actions over that ridiculous letter you sent to my friend, I will know for sure that your purpose is only hate and pride and victory. I am asking explicitly one last time for you to explain yourself. You should want to. You should want to go away from this with a clean slate. You should want a chance for forgiveness against someone you wronged (and I'm not talking about myself, so please leave me out of it).

Here are a few points for you to ponder, based on the mails you sent me regarding my website:

--I never suggested that I didn't "like" you, nor did I attack your Christianity. That is more than I can say for you. Whether we like each other isn't important. I said you are incompetent, which is true if even after all this you can make a mistake but can't justify your actions.

--Pray for me if you wish. Plenty of people think other people are wrong and waste their time talking to their idea of god begging for celestial powers to intervene and make other people think just like them. I think it's silly, but it doesn't hurt me if you want to pray. If that makes you feel good and righteous, feel free. Enjoy!

--You sure spent an awful lot of time and effort digging for background information on me. I remind you that I did nothing of the kind on you. I'm not interested in your background. I take you at face value--what you choose to present to me. Sadly you could not do the same for me by actually dealing with my words, without making personal comments about my parents, my age, my religion, and the *color of my text*. Why have you become obsessed with me? Does it bruise your ego so badly when someone says you're wrong that you must attack until you feel you've "won" something? Do you think that Jesus will be proud of you for conquering me and insulting me? Maybe pretty soon you'll wake up and understand I wasn't looking for a fight. I was looking for an explanation and perhaps an apology, not on my own behalf.

--I'm really not sure why you're so smug about finding my website . . . you spent a lot of time in your last mails crowing about how you found me out, like I don't realize my writing and works and religious ponderings are on the Internet. I've had a website for a decade! I know how this stuff works.

--Your suggestion that you were tipped off by the holy spirit to investigate me is pretty funny. Honey, the Holy Ghost did not whisper "the truth about me" into your ear. Your background information was acquired through something called a search engine. And it is not miraculous that someone so unwilling to admit his own faults would go to such lengths to find things about me to attack. This is all very childish of you. It shows how insecure you are. And notice none of these statements are based on conjecture. They are responses to the words you have given me. You still have such a lack of respect for anyone outside your culture (or indeed anyone outside your head, it seems) to be able to let love enter and try to help in the spirit of compassion. You could learn a lot from Jesus if you actually tried to live by the lessons in your own book.

--You wrote this: "When someone 'complains' too much about a non issue [ . . . ] its time to do a prayer and background check." I think this is the only thing you've said in this mail that actually upsets me. (All your other accusations were attempting to shame me for things I'm proud of or were baseless even as both of us know it, so I can't be offended by them.) But to say I am upset over a NON-ISSUE . . . it makes me aware that you are a bigger problem than I thought.

Here is why that is so very upsetting. You have refused to acknowledge your offensive behavior in sending a "dear parent, how to help your son" mail, and then on top of that you're saying that this is a non-issue. It is THE issue! It is THE reason I wrote you! It is also very surprising to me that the reason for your volunteering--helping people, though apparently you forgot--is considered a non-issue. You have NOT helped my friend and you offended him so deeply he did not think it was worth answering you. He certainly didn't go away from reading your mail with any advice he could use, because he is not the troubled girl's parent, the troubled girl is not a son, and her problem is not being tempted by a gang because her problem is that she is in it since birth and they think they own her and she wants out. You continue to contact me because you want to challenge MY beliefs, and that is completely inappropriate. Your issue should have been helping this person, or finding her someone who could help if you could not. How dare you call it a non-issue. How DARE you.

--You said I'm "negative." Well, every time I've suggested you support all the attitudes and beliefs you keep assigning to me (by quoting something I've said), you conveniently sidestep the request and make more unsubstantiated accusations. This is because both of us know you cannot find support for your accusations, because it doesn't exist. You are not fooling me into thinking you're right, any more than you can fool me into thinking I must've made a typo by saying "WELL YOU HAVE THEM TOO, YOU'RE NOT PERFECT!" Ahh, but I am! (In that respect.) And I know it! You can't just accuse people of something without backing it up. That which can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. Meaning you have no leg to stand on if you refuse to support your statements. You should want to!

--Apparently it's your belief that finding out I'm a practicing Pagan negates any points I could possibly have--or indeed that it negates my right to being treated civilly by you. Jesus helped whores and blasphemers and sinners of all types. He showed them his love and in so doing he made them want to be more like him. But your response reads more like "Ah-HAH! You are a WITCH! How disGUSTING! You will burn in Hell and this amuses me! And I am saying this to you because it makes ME feel holy!" You are so focused on my religious beliefs when I am willing to be tolerant--I'm even tolerant of your intolerance, and still you treat me like I'm the lost and deluded one. A wise person will take and incorporate knowledge from all sources he encounters.

The fact that I'm Pagan doesn't give you carte blanche to treat me (or my friend) in a disrespectful way. If you think that those of a different religious background are therefore sub-human and proceed to treat them such, I guess you (yet again) have not paid much attention to the holy book that you claim lays down the laws of your life. I suppose that my being Pagan means you couldn't be wrong about anything we talk about together. Because you perceive yourself to have the one and only true religion, that means everything you do is above reproach? A good Christian (and any good person) should always be seeking to improve himself. You've shown not a shred of repentance for your share in causing hurt and pain to one of my dear friends. He sent you a letter while in a vulnerable place, and your response made it clear that "your call is important to us!" is a lie in your case.

--You claimed I've been "busted." That doesn't make any sense. I wasn't lying or hiding a thing. The fact that you obviously take so much perverted pleasure out of "finding out" something you assumed I didn't want you to know goes even further in showing your true colors. You wrote this: "Anyway Witch Grrrrl; those demons infesting your soul should be quite stirred up by now. 'OMG...somebody I don't even know KNOWS about ME???'" Where you get the idea that these are the words that must be swirling crazily in my mind at this point is beyond me. I know that the Internet is a *public* place. I have not only publicly identified as a Pagan in multiple places, but I have had a public witchcraft teaching site since 1999, and somehow you think it's shocking that you've managed to uncover the truth? You are not a genius or a detective or even particularly inventive just because you thought to type "swankivy2" into a search engine. Thousands of people look at my sites every day. I want them to. It is not a personal diary or an encrypted page. It is a website meant to be read. You have attempted to assign me thoughts and feelings I do not possess, and in so doing you repeatedly show how incompetent you are at judging other people's characters.

--You wrote this: "if you try attacking [organization] or other such endeavors, you may 'get away' for a while, BUT you will be placed on the short list of God's post office." . . . Are you saying this because you're afraid of me? I don't have any history of attacking anyone. And I'm hoping (fervently) that your ramblings of the last 24 hours are not representative of your site. Not to mention that I (unlike you) do my homework, and I read the disclaimer on the site before I e-mailed you. Meaning the disclaimer that says the site doesn't take responsibility for anything that happens to someone who takes one of you counselors' advice and regrets it. They make it very clear you're not professionals. But I didn't have to read that disclaimer to figure that out in your case. . . . As for God's post office, again I must say I think it's funny that you think it's a good policy to threaten me with a Heavenly Smiting if I should cross you. I wasn't thinking about attacking anything/anyone, but regardless I do not fear your God because I do not believe in him. Saying Biblegod is going to get me if I transgress isn't a very good mode of social control in my case. I behave in a moral and humane manner because I have a conscience, not because I have FEAR of reprisal.

--I've never written "witche" on my site. I don't get why you'd put that in the mail like you're making fun of me for saying it when I have never used the term.

--You said something about "law enforcement" folk coming after me for my "past crimes on the www." I guess this is supposed to scare me, much like your love-based threats of Hell? You don't seem to understand that a person cannot fear something she doesn't believe. I know I have not committed any crimes on the www, so I cannot be wanted for them. It's the same as I don't feel one ounce of fear no matter how much you bluster about Satan and Hell, because I do not believe in them either. If someone was very passionate about telling you that Allah will smite you because you didn't pray five times a day, I doubt you'd be frightened at all, because *you don't believe that's the way the world works.* Same here! I'm not trying to offend you by saying I don't believe in your mythology. I'm pointing it out because it is a fact that I don't believe in it, so repeating yourself about how I'm going to fry and burn and cry in Hell because I didn't admit YOU picked the right God is . . . not effective. At all.

--You suggested I should renounce Satan if I "want a REAL fight." What makes you think I want a fight at all? Just because you do?

--You wrote this: "[organization] Night Desk/Thanks for playing... /BTW...yes, I did say WITCH!" Still can't figure out why you're throwing it in my face that you said "WITCH," considering I identify myself as a witch online in many places. Why would I be ashamed of that when it is part of my beliefs? It really doesn't have anything to do with you. Addressing your sig there, I also don't know what you think I'm "playing." Again, it looks like you think there is something going on here that one of us must win. That's ridiculous.

--I must've REALLY gotten under your skin an awful lot for you to try to hurt me (even though you're unable to do so because you don't have the ammunition). I'm guessing you really enjoy trying to put other people down. I can see your nasty personality in being unable to admit you were wrong, but still being so eaten up with jealousy and anger that you must dig through my personal website to find more personal stuff to attack. You wouldn't keep going like this if it wasn't *personal* for you--you keep bringing up new points and attacking these straw men when all along I've only written you because I wanted ONE point addressed. You just keep attacking other stuff because you CANNOT explain yourself. I wish you weren't so pathetic, because really, this is unhealthy, this self-hatred of yours. (People who hate themselves often try to throw other people under the bus in an attempt to climb higher themselves. You cannot see this in yourself because you're too proud.)

That search of the WWW on you REALLY turned up some information that brought laughter to a dull afternoon.

See? You're lashing out and claiming this information you "dug up" is funny. I have no reason to fight with you, because I am a creature of peace. Why aren't you?

The comments you posted through the comment forms on my site will not be posted. They are off-topic and deliberately abusive (not to mention you didn't follow directions and choose what you were even responding to). I have a disclaimer on the site that says such things will not be posted. I don't know what you mean by "AOL has open files on you" etc. Nobody has pending files on me for anything--though I think your inability to express yourself well prevents me from understanding what you were really getting at by saying that.

I really don't think it's very becoming for you to keep trying to hurt me. Especially since you're so hypocritical as to criticize me for having a "rants page" as if it is evidence that I do nothing but complain. (You ran into my writing and art sites as well, but seem to be conveniently forgetting about these indisputably positive pursuits of mine.) People deal with anger and annoyance in different ways. For me, it helps to write about my negative experiences and share them. That way I get them out. I say what's on my mind and therefore it does not have to keep weighing on my thoughts. This is one of the things that helps me live a peaceful life.

I type very quickly and words come to my mind quite easily. I have not spent much of my time or energy on our correspondence. You cannot say the same as you have now just spent an afternoon looking at my website and attacking it. Word to the wise: Nothing about ME or MY BACKGROUND is relevant to this conversation, and NOTHING you find on my site is meant to be secret. I want to know why YOU set yourself up to be in a counseling position when your main function seems to be sending people an all purpose form letter addressed to parents whose sons are dabbling in gang activity. (Can't a robot do that?)

You wrote this: "I KNOW that we'll hear from you later; and my bosses at the site will likely contact you too!"

I really hope that they do. You have been unable to help me address my original query and unwilling to even acknowledge that it happened because you're too busy attacking me personally. It would be refreshing to be contacted by someone with some maturity and tact.

If you cannot stop attacking ME personally and if you cannot just *once* address the issue I had with your advice to my friend, I have reached the point at which I do not want to spend any more of my time humoring you. If you can be mature and acknowledge your wrongdoing and either explain it or apologize for it, I will know there is some shred of decency in you and some tiny particle of purpose to this exchange. If you cannot or will not do this, I cannot continue to let you waste my time. I'm more patient than most, but when it becomes obvious that your goal is to "win" rather than "reach an understanding," I have no interest in letting your temper tantrum go on.

~*ivY

From: Bro Mike
To: Ivy

Hey Ivy:

Of course you can 'hide' things by not 'mentioning' them. A lie is still a lie, and a deception is still an untruth. You just weren't ready for someone to 'do their homework' on you. You can't post rants and not expect to be challenged; and you can't throw up your 'wisdom' and 'right to rant' without someone bringing it to your attention. You can 'pretend' that I don't know what I'm talking about; but EVERY time you write back, you make OBVIOUS the fact that you are 'hooked' on the venom of discontent and revenge.

If you AIN'T hooked...then wise up.

Can I SAVE you? NOPE! ONLY the Lord Jesus Christ can save and keep. And, you can ONLY be saved IF the Holy Spirit is drawing you to repent of your sins and accept Christ as your Lord and Savior.

Witchcraft is sad. Its just like a gang. Both DRAW you in to do wrong. Christ draws you in, Through the Holy Spirit to do RIGHT!

You choose which is better! And...your eternal soul RESTS upon the choice!

Free speech does not give anyone the right to yell FIRE in a crowded theatre! Free speech does not give anyone the right to cuss out a police officer, or a judge, or a parent.

Anyway, it was fun. Who knows? The reason we conversed may have been because God needed you to hear the truth about Jesus Christ again. Interesting that V may have been the person to get you to actually start wondering IF GOD EXISTED.

Usually, people that I have run into who NEED to know God SOON get into a fix where either they call out to Him, or it is over FOR them. That's just been my experience. I'm just a little fish in the sea of life, but Christ is my all and all! I've had some rough times; times that would make V SIT DOWN AND CRY; BUT...I've had Christ to LEAN on. I've been places and been blessed to minister to people who were into things that would BLOW your little, shallow, witchcraft inspired, ritualized mind; BUT...I've had Christ as my protection and my Rock!

A Communist once said: "Religion is the opiate for the masses!" The Bible says that: "God resisteth the proud and giveth grace to the humble." The Bible is still here; the Communist who made that statement is no longer here!

BTW...if YOU have given bad info to V...I won't be the one holding you accountable. Anyone who tells another to 'blow off' their need for Christ will be held accountable by God himself.

So, have a great weekend. Rant all you want. I've already posted to your site. But, you won't be making the big time with your art, your writing, nor your ranting. Its your attitude that is holding you back. You care nothing for V; you care about YOUR success, because you THINK its all about you!

A Proud look, lying lips, practicing witchcraft, are only a few of the things on God's short list that he HATES. Since you have pages of advice on your site, let me give you some advice...for FREE.

You wanna be bold and dangerous? Become a CHRISTIAN!!! The Witches' rede is just as much a lie as a Gangbanger saying: "We're your family..."

Get a CLUE Ivy...Ignorance is cute when you are 16. When you hit 18 and start seeing how life works, and proceed from there, you'd better have something that works. Witchcraft? NO Feminism? NO Shady Business Deals? NO Lying? NO Jesus Christ and the ability to have a new life? PRICELESS!

BTW 2--you really need to WRITE BACK to some of those people you lied on, insulted, cast spells upon, or were just MEAN to! You can't get anywhere when you are standing on someone elses' neck! And...you are about to get a lesson on this in the very near future.

Bro Mike
End Transmission

From: Ivy
To: Bro Mike

Mike,

As expected, you have failed to take responsibility for your transgressions (in fact, you won't even acknowledge your wrongdoing), and you have done nothing but continue to judge me. Perhaps one day you will realize that no one wants to take advice from a person who can't treat another human being with the honor and respect they deserve. Rest assured you have changed my mind about my own ways NOT in the slightest through your intolerant ranting, and have in fact reminded me that a human convinced of his own righteousness is indeed a pathetic and disappointing sight.

Because you e-mail me NOT in the spirit of trying to help but only as an attempt to claim a victory, I no longer have time for you in my life. You are not welcome to e-mail me again.

~*ivY

[I certainly never found out what he thought constituted "my past crimes" that he kept throwing in my face--I can't even think of anything that could be misconstrued as a law transgression or an "open file" of any kind--but I can say at least this guy gave up trying to gloat about how he FOUND ME OUT (about something I put on the Internet on purpose). I don't really know what ever happened with the girl in the gang, either; I believe V was in touch with her a while longer and then they had some kind of falling out and they don't talk now. I hope she got some actual help.]