From: b9

Gosh... you have an awesome URL. 'specially love the backgrounds!!! They're ******** baby!!! Guh-roovy, cat...

I dunno if you'd wanna see mine. Talks 'bout our salvation N how to reach the Great Beyond. Yay? Nay? You decide. Your lifetime. Your Eternity. I'll pray for that cute, lil' goirl I saw. God bless.

[So I e-mailed him, but the e-mail address he'd provided bounced, so I ended up having to go to the website he provided and leave him a guestbook entry there.]

From: Ivy
To: b9

Hi b9, thanks for signing my guestbook:

Gosh... you have an awesome URL. 'specially love the backgrounds!!! They're ******** baby!!! Guh-roovy, cat...

Thank you for all the compliments.

I dunno if you'd wanna see mine. Talks 'bout our salvation N how to reach the Great Beyond. Yay? Nay? You decide. Your lifetime. Your Eternity. I'll pray for that cute, lil' goirl I saw. God bless.

I can see you mean well, but I really don't like to be told "I'll pray for you." I don't believe salvation of the type you're describing is necessary, and I don't believe that I'm going to end up in Hell if I don't accept Jesus any more than I believe the weight of my heart after death will determine whether Anubis the jackal-headed Egyptian god will devour my body parts as punishment for my sin. Every religion has its own set of myths and rules, and I don't see yours as any different from all the ancient Greek rituals and all the other modern gospels of the world. Nothing separates the New Testament in my mind from every other religious book or collection of myths from all throughout history; they've all got their own prescription for how to live, but I'm doing pretty good with my self-medication here. Thanks anyway!

Have a good one.

~*~iVY

From: b9
To: Ivy

No, friend, our religion - hardcore Catholicism - is much different from ANY of theirs. Why? Ours was founded by the Trinity, an immortal soul who came down to earth because He loves us. All the rest were founded by sinful mortals who'll perish. True, Jesus died on the cross, but He rose again on the THIRD day, never to die again. Not some animal/demon, who was kicked-in-the-ass outta Heaven, who's guilty of fornication/idolatry like the Jackal you talked about who's the king of the underworld. Puh-leeze.

You seem to have your set of beliefs, friend. You're somewhat confused. Would you like to be a Catholic and see what splendor the Church can bring to your lifetime? Would you like to know the Way home? How old art thou? 14? 15? I bet you tore-through my URL to find the place where you could sign and, then, be done with it, never bothering to read the horrible practice of abortion OR sex without marriage may send you to the Abyss forever OR repentance is the Trinity's way of forgiving your sins if you have the moxie 'enuff to walk into a confessional.

-BeeNine. Think summore. Grow-up summore. You have time before the end. PS www.JohnLeary.com

To: b9
From: Ivy

No, friend, our religion - hardcore Catholicism - is much different from ANY of theirs.

Well, to each his own--you'll see yours as the only truth no matter what anyone says, either because you buy into what a book says or because of some personal experience you've had that convinced you of it. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with you trying to tell me that the same must be true for me despite the fact that I don't believe in the book and haven't had any personal experience to convince me that anything it says is true. That's why I see it as the same as any other religion, and relegate it to mythology where I feel it belongs. Doesn't mean it doesn't have its wisdom--they all do.

Ours was founded by the Trinity, an immortal soul who came down to earth because He loves us. All the rest were founded by sinful mortals who'll perish.

If I had any proof that that was true, then maybe you'd have a point. But there isn't anything telling me that this is true. Just telling me "well we're different because OUR religion was founded by the REAL God"--that doesn't make it any more convincing.

You seem to have your set of beliefs, friend. You're somewhat confused.

I do have a set of beliefs. But they're largely open at both ends, and entirely based on personal experience in this world. I don't feel particularly confused. If you'd like to give me a good reason why I should put any faith in the religion of your choice, try me.

Would you like to be a Catholic and see what splendor the Church can bring to your lifetime? Would you like to know the Way home?

Um . . . I don't think so. And you can tell me I'm lost and away from home as much as you like, but at this point it's your word against mine. I don't want to quarrel with you over anything--I'm willing to say to each his own--but I don't particularly like being told I'm deluded because I don't agree with you.

How old art thou? 14? 15?

Where'd you get that? Actually, I'm twenty-six.

I bet you tore-through my URL to find the place where you could sign and, then, be done with it

Actually I never wanted to go to your URL in the first place. You warned me in the guestbook entry that it might not be the type I'd like, and judging from the comment, I took this to heart. Problem is, when I tried to e-mail you back privately, it bounced, saying there was no such address. So I went to the site and there was no e-mail link anywhere, so I had to settle for the guestbook.

Think summore. Grow-up summore. You have time before the end.

It's this sort of condescension that I don't appreciate. If you want to have a religious discussion, I'm reluctant but open. In general. However, from the attitude you've shown me so far, I have very little doubt that it would be an exercise in futility for the both of us.

Here's the thing. You have nothing to support your beliefs that actually sways mine. I see nothing, no evidence physically or spiritually, that there is only one way and that you've got it nailed. If you would like to try to show me this proverbial light, you will have to do so without insisting that if I don't I'll burn in Hell (even if you think that is so--it doesn't scare a person who doesn't believe in Hell), and you will have to do so without using the fact that something is in the Bible as your proof that it is true. It just doesn't work that way on my side of the fence; it being in the Bible does not make it indisputably true, and you'll have to accept that that is my worldview if you want to talk to me about it.

And please, in any further responses . . . withhold your snippy judgments.

~*~iVY

To: Ivy
From: b9

I'll pray for you. For there is a Heaven...and a Hell. We are only on this earth as a test. While God has no favorites, if your time is up, it's up. Jesus Christ will judge us on the conduct we have shown towards Him.

Did we fornicate?
Did we masturbate?
Did we abort?
Did we do drive-bys?
Did we accomplish euthanasia?
Did we help an old woman across the street?
OR bike ride in the winter as a sacrifice?
OR give food to the poor?
OR pray the Divine Mercy for our brothers?
..ad nauseum

However, I believe very strongly He will appear when we perish, as we're going up, and say, "Would you like to follow me OR follow Satan (the Father of Lies)?" CHOOSE. -BeeNine

To: b9
From: Ivy

I'll pray for you. For there is a Heaven...and a Hell.

If it makes you feel better to pray for me and tell me that you know for a fact that there is a Heaven and a Hell, be my guest. It isn't hurting me if you're trying to help me in a way that I don't have to look at.

However, you completely ignored my suggestion to show me why I should believe; all you did was tell me "well sorry--you ARE wrong, I AM right . . . and I'll pray for you." In doing that, you don't come across as a person hoping to help someone else. You just come across as a jerk. And I know many Christians who would agree with me.

Interesting you phrase this like this:

However, I believe very strongly He will appear when we perish

Yes, you believe strongly. But you don't *know*. And if it was possible to know, then people with your beliefs wouldn't have to try so hard to get unbelievers to join you, because there would be proof. Very few people actually truly want to serve "evil." If there was a cut-and-dried "good," almost everyone would get in that boat. But there isn't a documented, foolproof way to salvation; there are only those who *believe* that there is. All you're showing me with your faith is that somehow you got sucked in along the way to believe what you do, for better or for worse. Your repeated insistence that you ARE right, things ARE this way, this WILL happen . . . it doesn't make you virtuous or boost your claims' likelihood. It makes me aware that if you had to jump off a bridge to prove that you believe, you would. And all you would have proved is that you believe, not that what you believe is true.

But I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference, since I did invite you to give me a good reason to believe and all you did was tell me again WHAT you believe and pity me with your offer to pray.

~*~iVY

From: b9
To: Ivy

Lookit this:

www.JohnLeary.com

God bless you with discernment. -BeeNine

if you want off the list, email me.

[And he proceeded to sign me up for the John Leary newsletter, which caused me to receive unwanted Catholic spam. I received 3,600 words of announcements, gospel, and requests to come to events. So I looked into the John Leary site to see if there was a place I could report abuse, since I very much doubt that even an evangelical site would support its members signing people up to teach them a lesson.]

To: abuse@ymlp.com
From: Ivy
Subject: Fwd: John Leary

I received this mailing as a result of my being signed up for this list by [b9's e-mail address]. It is a religious-oriented newsletter. This user and I have had private conversations discussing religion and he has repeatedly tried to change my views; the discussions were unsolicited and unwelcome. I suppose he's decided to "save" me by signing me up for this list. (The e-mail said "e-mail me if you want off the list." He knew I wouldn't appreciate this list's subject so he had no business signing me up in the first place.) I think this user probably ought to be reprimanded or banned from using your services since he's obviously misusing them. Let me know if you need more info, okay? Thanks.

[I then contacted b9 privately one more time:]

To: b9
From: Ivy

if you want off the list, email me.

I don't appreciate this sort of thing and you already knew that. If you continue to forward me messages like this when you *know* it isn't something I want, I'll stop accepting e-mail from you.

--Ivy

[But he stopped and I didn't get any more mail.]