From: Wesley
To: Ivy
Subj: Great Webage Network!

I must say, your WebPages certainly have a lot of material on them. It will probably be several weeks before I get through it all. I am listening to you singing the song "Beyond." It's very nice. I believe that you would especially appreciate my Halloween Webpage which defends the holiday of Halloween and casts witches in a positive light.

[The e-mail included his website address and a request to check it out. I did so, and was kind of annoyed to find the site was not only super unprofessional and full of typos, but also covered in a glaze of self-importance, as he claimed his sloppy, adverb-diseased, super-cliché-filled novel was represented by a literary agency. At the time--in 2001--I had not achieved such a thing, so I was surprised to see something this crappy supposedly had agency representation. That might explain some of the comments I made in my e-mail below, though I was trying to be nice by also exaggerating my compliments a bit.]

From: Ivy
To: Wesley

I must say, your WebPages certainly have a lot of material on them.

hehe...wel, yes. I know. ;)

It will probably be several weeks before I get through it all.

Yeah, you should see me when I'm trying to check all my links. ::whew!::

I am listening to you singing the song "Beyond." It's very nice.

Thank you! That is wonderful to hear.

I believe that you would especially appreciate my Halloween Webpage which defends the holiday of Halloween and casts witches in a positive light.

Wonderful! I'm so glad you've done something on this subject.

Your website shows me we share many interests. I am quite a science fiction fan myself, I love most literature, and am an avid watcher of anime (I go to meetings once a week to get my fix). Tenchi's my favorite anime, though it is closely followed by Kodomo No Omocha.

Of course, I also like fantasy writing, though mine is much less traditional than yours. The plot and emotions in your sample chapter are excellent, though I must admit that I thought some of the language was a bit flowery. (Perhaps I think so because of the volume of your adverbs and the use of many words when fewer would suffice, and the occasional slip into using unnecessary permutations for the word "said.") I read that it is being represented by a literary agent at this time, which is excellent...but I hope all the typos are out of it, I did catch almost twenty typos in your online version. Your characters' personalities come through well.

Thanks for the Halloween page too...I'm so glad the part about Witches shed some light on what we actually do and didn't cast pagan religions in a spot of evil...

Let me know if you want to share any thoughts. :)

~*~**iVY

[So of course this is where he feels like he needs to find things to critique about my writing, and extend the criticism to me personally. So he can preserve his illusion of superiority.]

From: Wesley
To: Ivy

I would recommend Terry Brooks and JRR Tolkien to any fantasy fan. They are quite good.

And a lot of publishers will not look at unsolicited manuscripts Like Del Rey for example. So I submitted my story to several agent until Cambridge Literary Associates agreed to represent it. They edited my manuscript and are now pitching it to several publishers.

[Note: Cambridge Literary Associates is a scam. Most people who want an agent will bother to research and know better than to sign with an agency that asks them to pay for editing services before signing.]

I read the first chapter of your novel: The House that Ivy Built. It was cute. I didn't like the way Ivy kept flirting with that guy whom she had no interest in on a romantic level. It is not right or wise to toy with a man's heart. That should be obvious considering all of the creeps you encounter in the chat groups.

And let me guess, this Ivy is you, right? I got that impression not just from her name but from her mannerisms as well. And she must have been at least partially inspired by Ryoko from the Tenchi Muyo series seeing that she flies and walks on the ceiling.

I also read "Bad Fairy" in your short story section. Although it was a good story, I had to agree with one of the criticisms in the review section. The narrator, Malefant, is that her name? She sounded too young and preppy considering her age, wisdom, and experience in the world she lived in. Whenever I write from a point of view of a character, I try to put myself into their mindset and the world they exist in order to use the dialect in which they would express themselves.

Have you ever tried to get one of your short stories published in any magazine? I think "Bad Fairy" would have an excellent chance of beeing published in Realms of Fantasy magazine, after a few revisions.

As for all the adverbs. I have noticed that there are quite a few of them in my novel. Too many actually. I am now in the process of revising my novel so there won't be so many of them.

[Wait, you're REVISING but you're also on submission? No. You should not be in basic revisions if your book is on submission to publishers.]

I'm trying to shorten the sentences too. As for your story, I believe that it has the potential of reaching cult status, if published. I know that it would make a cool anime flick. It would also be a good series for young adults if not for all the swear words. I will probably read some more of your chapters when I have time.

Yours truely,

Wesley [last name redacted]

[Yep, let me pat you on the head and tell you that you should really think about PUTTING YOURSELF IN A CHARACTER'S MINDSET (while misspelling her name, even though it's right there in the story), and by the way, did you ever think of reading Tolkien and Brooks? Gee. And since you and one of your characters from when you were a teenager have the same name, obviously you must treat men poorly, and your character is clearly a rip-off (from an anime I actually hadn't seen until several years after I wrote the story).]

From: Ivy
To: Wesley

I would recommend Terry Brooks and JRR Tolkien to any fantasy fan. They are quite good.

I find it kind of strange that I write fantasy and yet have never read Tolkien, but oh well, that's not the type of fantasy I write anyway, so I suppose I can get away with it.

And a lot of publishers will not look at unsolicited manuscripts

I know that quite well. I do my homework.

I read the first chapter of your novel: The House that Ivy Built. It was cute.

Scary. Yeah, the first chapter is pretty "cute," though the most up-to-date version isn't online right now. I'm slow at editing it because it has so far to go before it's up to my standards and I just want to work on the fourth book in the series, since it's new. Blah.

I didn't like the way Ivy kept flirting with that guy whom she had no interest in on a romantic level. It is not right or wise to toy with a man's heart. That should be obvious considering all of the creeps you encounter in the chat groups.

Are you talking to me? I'm not the one doing it. Don't reprimand *me* for pete's sake, unless you want me to deliver the message to my character or something.

The flirting is a game to her, it should give you some idea of her personality.

And let me guess, this Ivy is you, right?

No.

I got that impression not just from her name but from her mannerisms as well.

She does share mannerisms with me, little things like that we both bite our nails and grow our bangs too long and whatnot. Other than some coincidences that just seemed to happen when I created her, we are not very similar.

And she must have been at least partially inspired by Ryoko from the Tenchi Muyo series seeing that she flies and walks on the ceiling.

I created her at least two years before I ever saw Tenchi or heard of Ryoko. I was initially attracted to the Tenchi universe because of how similar Ryoko was to my character, actually, and it remains one of my favorites.

I also read "Bad Fairy" in your short story section. Although it was a good story, I had to agree with one of the criticisms in the review section. The narrator, Malefant, is that her name? She sounded too young and preppy considering her age, wisdom, and experience in the world she lived in.

Maleficent...::grin::...I also agreed with that criticism, though my only "excuse" is that not everyone matures the same with time, especially considering that the main character had no social contact for much of her life and remained in some ways socially a child. "Does not play well with others," LOL... But all things considered, it didn't come across the way you'd think an older person would. It's not something I really want to fix at this point, though.

Whenever I write from a point of view of a character, I try to put myself into their mindset and the world they exist in order to use the dialect in which they would express themselves.

Um...

Not to be rude, but I hope you're not trying to tell me here that you think I didn't know that.

Maybe based on that short story, you might think I didn't get into her mindset because she sounded too young, but that's backwards--she sounds young because that was how I decided to portray her, and whether that's realistic or not is what turned out to be the problem, not whether she came out how I intended.

Have you ever tried to get one of your short stories published in any magazine? I think "Bad Fairy" would have an excellent chance of beeing published in Realms of Fantasy magazine, after a few revisions.

No, I've never tried to get published in a magazine, though I'm thinking of submitting my short story "Bloom" to a magazine under my friend Joe's recommendation. I wrote "Bad Fairy" for a little "assignment" my friends and I did on a list about one of our favorite authors, and I don't really want to use it for much else.

[Note: This conversation happened in 2001. I first started submitting to magazines in 2002.]

As for all the adverbs. I have noticed that there are quite a few of them in my novel. Too many actually. I am now in the process of revising my novel so there won't be so many of them. I'm trying to shorten the sentences too.

I have too many adverbs myself; they sneak in there when I write. I'm trying to ditch them in revisions. Shortening sentences is a good idea.

As for your story, I believe that it has the potential of reaching cult status, if published.

I'll keep that in mind.

I know that it would make a cool anime flick.

I've been told that before, too. One person told me it reads like a comic book. It gets much less goofy, though. I think its first chapter gives the wrong impression about the books in general, but I can't exactly change that, seeing as how the books are kind of about how the main character's take on life changes as a result of experience. Have to have a starting point to change from, and when you first meet Ivy, life is indeed all fun and games.

It would also be a good series for young adults if not for all the swear words.

I have been toning down swearing since I first started the books (the first one used to be really full of them), but some has to stay; that's just the way some of the main characters like to talk, and like the flirting, gives you some impression of the kind of people they are.

[So for some reason at this point Wesley decided I was too defensive and started lecturing me on bullshit. I guess mostly because I responded to several super-obvious basic things he said with "I already knew that."]

To: Ivy
From: Wesley

Why are you so touchy?

I was only making conversation when I said that a lot publishers won't look at unsolicited manuscripts. No need to bite my head off.

And since you are the author you are complete control of everything that goes on in your story. So your implication that it is impossible to "deliver a message to the character" is moot when you take that into consideration. I wouldn't have had anything to say at all about Ivy's flirting if not for the "panty" thing. This is just me, but I thought that incident passed from flirting to being smutty. And the mood of the story indicated that this was supposed to be cute.

And there comes a point when the character and the author have so much in common with their personalities that it is obvious that the character is a direct reflection of the author herself, their appearances are the only thing different. This may not be what you intended, but it's there.

And again, you show your touchiness when I tell you what I do when I write from the point of view of the character. I was by no means implying that you didn't know that. However, that didn't seem to be what you did in "Bad Fairy".

I hope the above doesn't make you mad at me. I just waned to clear up any misconceptions.

Wesley [last name redacted]

[Yeah okay. Grasshopper, please accept that I know more about you than you do by reading your writing and making assumptions about you. I am, after all, in a better position to understand reality. AND IF YOU GET MAD AT ME FOR INSULTING YOU, IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE TOUCHY, NOT BECAUSE I DID ANYTHING WRONG!]

To: Wesley
From: Ivy

Why are you so touchy?

Hmm...I may come across that way if I feel like someone is talking down to me. Some of your responses sounded condescending. They continue to be that way in this e-mail.

I was only making conversation when I said that a lot publishers won't look at unsolicited manuscripts. No need to bite my head off.

Most of the big ones don't. I always check that in my research, though I have yet to look for an agent since I still have work to do.

And since you are the author you are complete control of everything that goes on in your story. So your implication that it is impossible to "deliver a message to the character" is moot when you take that into consideration.

When you told me that "you should not play with a man's heart" or something to that effect, you made it sound like you thought I did things like that. But I don't mess with people. That's something that my character ends up having to work on, but it sounded like you were trying to give me a lecture when it wasn't me who screwed up, you know what I mean?

This is just me, but I thought that incident passed from flirting to being smutty.

It shouldn't be when you take into account the fact that she also runs around the house naked on some occasions, but you haven't seen that yet. She's a very weird creature. And she crosses behavior lines constantly, which is another thing she learns to work on.

And there comes a point when the character and the author have so much in common with their personalities that it is obvious that the character is a direct reflection of the author herself, their appearances are the only thing different. This may not be what you intended, but it's there.

It's hard to say that's the case if you don't really know me, though. We have a few similarities...some things make it easier for me to write from the point of view of a character, so I passed them on, but honestly, my main character is a very different person.

And again, you show your touchiness when I tell you what I do when I write from the point of view of the character. I was by no means implying that you didn't know that. However, that didn't seem to be what you did in "Bad Fairy".

This is where it just seems like you're talking down to me a bit. You said I didn't put myself in the character's place (et cetera) when I wrote this story (which is probably why you gave me your own writing tip). You seemed to tell me what you do when you write because I needed to hear it. I don't believe you would have said it if you thought I already knew it.

I think instead that you may have expected the main character in "Bad Fairy" to act a certain way given her years and experience, and since the story didn't conform, you thought it was incongruous. But even though I do agree that the voice still came across a bit young, you have to also realize that this character had almost no social contact with the outside world during much of her adult life, and that most of her young life (where she DID have social contact) was unpleasant in many ways. She seemed to retain that attitude somewhat, still holding onto "childhood" rivalry that many others may have let fall by the wayside or grown out of by adulthood. This isn't an "excuse" for writing in a young voice; the young voice, conversely, should tip the reader off that this character never really matured to the expected point. This is actually a bit like me, since I retain some aspects of childhood even though I'm in my twenties. People think that at this point in my life I'm "supposed" to care about getting on a career boat and finding a husband, but that's not the case...and I suppose that's sort of similar to what I did with my main character in "Bad Fairy."

I hope the above doesn't make you mad at me. I just waned to clear up any misconceptions.

Appreciate it...just keep in mind text doesn't always come across the same as you might in person or in any voice medium, and if you give unsolicited advice sometimes it sounds condescending, which I utterly can't stand and to which I am very sensitive.

In other news, I am about one chapter away from finishing my fourth book in my Ivy series. That will be exciting, and I have quite a few waiting to read it. Now if only I could just snap my fingers and have it available in the bookstores to more than just acquaintances and friends, that would be fun, but alas...

~*~*iVY

To: Ivy
From: Wesley

For the record, I never said that you didn't put yourself in the character's place. I merely told you what I did when writing from the point of view of a character in the hopes that you might have something to add. Instead, you look for all of these hidden meanings in that statement. You should learn to take things at face value.

Also, in the writing business, one must develop a thick skin, because once published, people will do more to your work than give "unsolicited advice." Indeed, I, myself, had received criticisms about my work that were much harsher than the analysis I gave yours, and they came off worse than "condescending." But I viewed these criticisms on a constructive level and used them to improve myself and my stories. That's really the best revenge against your critics. If you are very sensitive to unsolicited advice and utterly can't stand it, I hate to think how you would react to the critics of your published works, who are practically merciless!

So if I sound "condescending" it is only because I am trying to be sensitive to your feelings while at the same time, being honest about what I think of your work. That is a consideration critics almost never give me.

Good luck on being published.

Wesley [last name redacted]

To: Wesley
From: Ivy

For the record, I never said that you didn't put yourself in the character's place. I merely told you what I did when writing from the point of view of a character in the hopes that you might have something to add.

Hmm, but yet you also say that I apparently didn't take this advice in "Bad Fairy," so which is it exactly? I mean, unless I've misunderstood, you're saying "No, I never said you didn't take this advice, I was only saying it to let you know what I do, but at the same time, you didn't take this advice since 'Bad Fairy' was lacking in this department." Do you see what I mean here?

Instead, you look for all of these hidden meanings in that statement. You should learn to take things at face value.

I didn't look for hidden meanings. You said: "you show your touchiness when I tell you what I do when I write from the point of view of the character. I was by no means implying that you didn't know that. However, that didn't seem to be what you did in 'Bad Fairy'." I wasn't jumping to conclusions. You weren't just randomly telling me that you put yourself in a character's place when you write about them; you were telling me that because you thought I hadn't done so when I wrote "Bad Fairy," and that maybe I needed to hear it. Incidentally, I don't see how you CAN write from the point of view of a character WITHOUT putting yourself in their place.

Also, in the writing business, one must develop a thick skin, because once published, people will do more to your work than give "unsolicited advice."

Thick skin is not a problem. I do not cringe from less-than-desirable responses to my writing. I encourage critiques of my work, but I also keep in mind that the critiques may come from people who have misunderstood what I said, and that I may have to rephrase or rearrange to prevent others from making the same mistakes. I *do* have a problem if people try to tell me I need to put sex in the story to sell it, or something like that; value judgments that have nothing to do with the quality of writing. Or, for example, your comment that sounded like you were criticizing *me* for how my character treated the guy she was teasing in the story. It sounded like you thought I didn't know her actions were mean, or something like that.

As for being in the "writing business," I don't have a problem with editors giving me any kind of advice at all, because once I've sent them a manuscript, their replies are no longer unsolicited. I only have a problem with criticism if it is not warranted, such as one person I ran an early version of my book by who hadn't read carefully enough and misinterpreted the entire premise of the book, and criticized me for making it silly. (He admitted that he generally didn't like fantasy, though, which is why it still puzzles me that he read any of it at all.)

I, myself, had received criticisms about my work that were much harsher than the analysis I gave yours, and they came off worse than "condescending." But I viewed these criticisms on a constructive level and used them to improve myself and my stories.

Like I said, I don't mind criticism if it is warranted, and if it is designed to help me improve rather than to shoot me down. Like, to use another example from the guy who didn't like fantasy, I did not appreciate his critique because he said something which amounted to "It's really cliché to have these people trying to help out humanity, I mean what are they getting out of it?" Problem there: It never said that the people in the story were trying to help out humanity, and it isn't true in the least. It was just what he expected to see, I guess, in a story with strange types of people in it. He also had this weird idea that Ivy was a fairy or something. And other people have read up to the third chapter and still for some ridiculous reason thought my main character had wings, and criticized me that it was unrealistic that no one noticed. These are the types of critiques I can't take; the kind that are completely pulled out of someone's ass or otherwise just not applicable.

If you are very sensitive to unsolicited advice and utterly can't stand it, I hate to think how you would react to the critics of your published works, who are practically merciless!

I didn't say I utterly can't stand unsolicited advice. I said this:

"if you give unsolicited advice sometimes it sounds condescending, which I utterly can't stand and to which I am very sensitive."

Clarification: I utterly cannot stand it when someone talks to me condescendingly--while giving unsolicited advice or any other time. I felt that at times you have tried to give me advice that I, quite frankly, am beyond. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but I know I'm a decent writer, and "put yourself in the character's place" is so third grade that I was offended you thought it was worthy of mention. Of *course* you put yourself in the character's place. Any wizard worth his salt does it. :) I was interested that you thought Ivy was going overboard when she flashed her panties; that is a valuable point of view, and shows me that I have been successful in showing yet another example of her stepping over acceptable behavior lines. (My only problem with it was that you sounded like you were telling *me* I shouldn't do stuff like this or think stuff like this is funny.) Feel free, if you see a problem with my work, to point it out to me; that is not going to offend me, and if I think it's valid I will probably use it to help me fine-tune. But keep in mind that editors are in a little bit of a different place than you are; you do not have a particular market in mind for my story like they might, and you do not have the experience or expertise that they do, as far as I can tell.

So if I sound "condescending" it is only because I am trying to be sensitive to your feelings while at the same time, being honest about what I think of your work. That is a consideration critics almost never give me.

Well, if you want to give a critique of any kind, all you really need is what's wrong and why you think it's wrong, and possibly how you think it could be changed if you're so inclined to offer. That's what I do when I edit others' books; I identify the error, tell them why it's wrong, and point them to the right form. For instance, you told me first off that in "Bad Fairy," the voice sounds too young. Fine start, and to some degree I agree. Secondly, though, you told me that a person of the main character's wisdom and age would sound more mature. That is your reason for thinking it's bad for her to sound youthful (so I suppose), but I don't entirely agree, so I don't entirely agree with the need to change it. If you want to get technical, the "bad" fairy in "Bad Fairy" did the things she did out of more or less childish rivalry and the need to be accepted, because she never really got past that when it was time, almost like a stage she never grew out of. That may be part of the reason why the tone didn't mature, other than that I have little experience writing from the point of view of advanced age too much beyond my own. In any case I'm glad that you read the story and thought about it enough to say more than "it's good." THAT, I think, is my pet peeve of getting advice. I was once told "it's good" about an 800-page novel. Um.

~*~*iVY

To: Ivy
From: Wesley

Hmm, but yet you also say that I apparently didn't take this advice in "Bad Fairy," so which is it exactly? I mean, unless I've misunderstood, you're saying "No, I never said you didn't take this advice, I was only saying it to let you know what I do, but at the same time, you didn't take this advice since 'Bad Fairy' was lacking in this department." Do you see what I mean here?

You are not paying attention. All I said was that you did not seem to do this in "Bad Fairy" even though you did seem to do it in other works. You are twisting my words and blowing it way out of proportion. I have never known anyone to be so sensitive over a casual remark!

I didn't look for hidden meanings. You said: "you show your touchiness when I tell you what I do when I write from the point of view of the character. I was by no means implying that you didn't know that. However, that didn't seem to be what you did in 'Bad Fairy'." I wasn't jumping to conclusions. You weren't just randomly telling me that you put yourself in a character's place when you write about them; you were telling me that because you thought I hadn't done so when I wrote "Bad Fairy," and that maybe I needed to hear it. Incidentally, I don't see how you CAN write from the point of view of a character WITHOUT putting yourself in their place.

And yet, lo and behold, that is what you did in "Bad Fairy." That was my impression and no doubt the impression of a lot of others as well. But to your credit, you seemed to apply that technique quite effectively in your other stories.

Thick skin is not a problem. I do not cringe from less-than desirable responses to my writing.

But that's what you are doing here.

I encourage critiques of my work, but I also keep in mind that the critiques may come from people who have misunderstood what I said, and that I may have to rephrase or rearrange to prevent others from making the same mistakes. I *do* have a problem if people try to tell me I need to put sex in the story to sell it, or something like that; value judgments that have nothing to do with the quality of writing.

I never once said that you should put "sex" in your story.

Or, for example, your comment that sounded like you were criticizing *me* for how my character treated the guy she was teasing in the story. It sounded like you thought I didn't know her actions were mean, or something like that.

I'm sorry, but that was the impression I got. The mood of the writing indicated that this was cute. But that's just my impression.

As for being in the "writing business," I don't have a problem with editors giving me any kind of advice at all, because once I've sent them a manuscript, their replies are no longer unsolicited.

You just don't get it, do you? I wasn't talking about critisism from the editors before you are published. I clearly stated that there would be unsolicited advice from those AFTER you were published. Mostly in the form of literary critics who publish their analysis in newspapers and magazines. You think I'm bad, girl, wait 'til you hear from them!

I only have a problem with criticism if it is not warranted, such as one person I ran an early version of my book by who hadn't read carefully enough and misinterpreted the entire premise of the book, and criticized me for making it silly. (He admitted that he generally didn't like fantasy, though, which is why it still puzzles me that he read any of it at all.)

If you ran by your writing to that person, then his critisism was indeed solicited, because you asked him to read it, if I'm not mistaken. And the fact that he didn't have a flattering review of your story does not necessarily mean that he didn't read it carefully enough. To be brutally honest, I found it rather silly myself, but again, that's just me. And just because a writer understands the premise of his or her book doesn't mean that his or her readers will. That's what taking and listening to critisism is all about, so you can recieve your reader's impression of your work, not just yours. It is the reader's impression that really counts.

Like I said, I don't mind criticism if it is warranted, and if it is designed to help me improve rather than to shoot me down. Like, to use another example from the guy who didn't like fantasy, I did not appreciate his critique because he said something which amounted to "It's really cliché to have these people trying to help out humanity, I mean what are they getting out of it?" Problem there: It never said that the people in the story were trying to help out humanity, and it isn't true in the least. It was just what he expected to see, I guess, in a story with strange types of people in it. He also had this weird idea that Ivy was a fairy or something. And other people have read up to the third chapter and still for some ridiculous reason thought my main character had wings, and criticized me that it was unrealistic that no one noticed.

That's because the biggest problem in your book is the lack of character discription. Until I saw the pictures you drew of her, I had the impression that Ivy had wings too since she could fly. I also was going out of my mind trying to figure out what the hell her best friend was. You spent no time describing him at all at the beginning. So unless you intend to have illustrations throughout your novel, I strongly suggest that you spend more time on describing your characters whether it be through narrative or dialogue.

These are the types of critiques I can't take; the kind that are completely pulled out of someone's ass or otherwise just not applicable.

Not at all. When a lot of people get a different idea or message about your story than the one you have, then the problem lies with the way the story is written, not with them! It's just plain egotistical and self righteous to believe otherwise. You have to remember that people are not going to be as familiar with your book's characters or enviornment as you are.

I didn't say I utterly can't stand unsolicited advice. I said this: "if you give unsolicited advice sometimes it sounds condescending, which I utterly can't stand and to which I am very sensitive."

These are just two ways of saying the exact same thing.

Clarification: I utterly cannot stand it when someone talks to me condescendingly--while giving unsolicited advice or any other time. I felt that at times you have tried to give me advice that I, quite frankly, am beyond. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but I know I'm a decent writer, and "put yourself in the character's place" is so third grade that I was offended you thought it was worthy of mention. Of *course* you put yourself in the character's place. Any wizard worth his salt does it. :)

Again, I stand by the fact that this is NOT what you did in "Bad Fairy" and you don't seem to appreciate that. If I don't tell you that about your story, who will? And if you were such a decent writer, you would know how to take constructive critisism better and not interpret it as "condescending" and act all tempermental about it and take it personally. Now I am trying to be as patient and polite about your work as I possibly can, but it is getting more and more difficult to do so with the childish and irritable tone you use. Indeed, the way you write in some cases, but not all, does seem to warrant the advice I gave. No offence, but perhaps you are not as good a writer as you think you are since you hold your impression of your own work in far higher regard than that of your readers, the latter being infinitely more important. I mean really, which is more important? The way you view your work, or the way your readers view it? Which do you think places a writer on the path to success?

I was interested that you thought Ivy was going overboard when she flashed her panties; that is a valuable point of view, and shows me that I have been successful in showing yet another example of her stepping over acceptable behavior lines. (My only problem with it was that you sounded like you were telling *me* I shouldn't do stuff like this or think stuff like this is funny.) Feel free, if you see a problem with my work, to point it out to me; that is not going to offend me, and if I think it's valid I will probably use it to help me fine-tune.

That's what I have been doin all along, but you are just too sensitive and self righteous to see it that way. Indeed, it seems that the only response to your work that doesn't offend you are those that focus only on the good points.

But keep in mind that editors are in a little bit of a different place than you are; you do not have a particular market in mind for my story like they might, and you do not have the experience or expertise that they do, as far as I can tell.

Nevertheless, it is to people like me who they have to sell the work to. And our impression of it determines how well the book will sell. They take that into consideration too, and so should you.

Well, if you want to give a critique of any kind, all you really need is what's wrong and why you think it's wrong, and possibly how you think it could be changed if you're so inclined to offer. That's what I do when I edit others' books; I identify the error, tell them why it's wrong, and point them to the right form. For instance, you told me first off that in "Bad Fairy," the voice sounds too young. Fine start, and to some degree I agree. Secondly, though, you told me that a person of the main character's wisdom and age would sound more mature. That is your reason for thinking it's bad for her to sound youthful (so I suppose), but I don't entirely agree, so I don't entirely agree with the need to change it. If you want to get technical, the "bad" fairy in "Bad Fairy" did the things she did out of more or less childish rivalry and the need to be accepted, because she never really got past that when it was time, almost like a stage she never grew out of. That may be part of the reason why the tone didn't mature, other than that I have little experience writing from the point of view of advanced age too much beyond my own. In any case I'm glad that you read the story and thought about it enough to say more than "it's good." THAT, I think, is my pet peeve of getting advice. I was once told "it's good" about an 800-page novel. Um.

Still, I just don't believe that what you said above was the original intention for the main character when you first wrote "Bad Fairy." Like you said, you have had little experience writing from the point of view of advanced age and now that more than one person has pointed out that flaw, you are trying to rationalize it.

Lastly, all of the critisism I gave you is constructive and by no means is meant to shoot you down. You may find it harsh given your senstitivity, but I assure you they are of the best intentions. I hope that you are mature enough to appreciate that, and improve as a writer because of it.

Wesley [last name redacted]

To: Wesley
From: Ivy

Mmm...okay, I'm gonna try not to rant too much since that would just be silly. You say: You are not paying attention. All I said was that you did not seem to do this in "Bad Fairy" even though you did seem to do it in other works. You are twisting my words and blowing it way out of proportion. I have never known anyone to be so sensitive over a casual remark!

Yes, this has gotten too big over one remark--this is not me being "sensitive" and whiny, but just trying to clarify what was meant. I'm glad you see that I do "put myself in the character's place" in other works; I suppose in this story, I just have a different conception of what the character's place is than you do.

Me:
Thick skin is not a problem. I do not cringe from less-than desirable responses to my writing.
You:
But that's what you are doing here.

Nah, not really...I think maybe you over-estimate how serious I am. I'm not thoroughly offended and hurt by anything you've been saying...I just didn't understand your meaning in a couple of them, and wanted you to clarify...which I suppose you took to be me challenging what you were saying rather than asking what you meant. I am in no way "cringing" from what you've said.

I never once said that you should put "sex" in your story.

Hmm...you told me to take statements at face value, but you haven't done that here. I never once said that you ever once said (heh) that I should put sex in my story. Here comes my quote again: "I *do* have a problem if people try to tell me I need to put sex in the story to sell it, or something like that; value judgments that have nothing to do with the quality of writing." Just an example of a value judgment people have given me; I was trying to use other examples people have given me in my last e-mail so that you would not think I was harping on the same things you said. I see I've been misread again, though. When people tell me something silly like "you need more sex in the story," it's an example of something I disregard as just taste, not bad writing on my part. It's not "bad" if it excludes sex, or action, or blood, or humor...it is what it is, and I wasn't trying to say you made any of these judgments. 'Twas an illustration of some people's inability to distinguish between their own tastes and "good."

You just don't get it, do you? I wasn't talking about critisism from the editors before you are published. I clearly stated that there would be unsolicited advice from those AFTER you were published. Mostly in the form of literary critics who publish their analysis in newspapers and magazines. You think I'm bad, girl, wait 'til you hear from them!

You sound like you wrote this mail when you were pissed off. Am I pissing you off? I'd rather you didn't snap at me.

After a book is published, there's not much I can do to improve it; it's out there, bing bam boom. Literary critics aren't going to bother me, if my books ever make enough of a splash to be noticed by anyone who'd want to review them anyway.

If you ran by your writing to that person, then his critisism was indeed solicited, because you asked him to read it, if I'm not mistaken.

I never said this criticism wasn't solicited. I said it wasn't warranted. (Incidentally, I didn't ask him to read it; he volunteered when I mentioned I was writing a book in a chat room. He was curious, though not very interested in the genre.) The criticism wasn't WARRANTED because he said my premise was silly when he didn't even know what the premise WAS. He totally made it up. I never said my characters were trying to help out humanity, but he pulled that out of his butt. And I've never had anyone think that before or since. I was using him as an absurd example.

And the fact that he didn't have a flattering review of your story does not necessarily mean that he didn't read it carefully enough. To be brutally honest, I found it rather silly myself, but again, that's just me.

Honestly. Do you really think I don't know that some people just won't like what I write? I know that some people will understand it completely and just not like it. But it wasn't the "unflattering review" that caused me to think he didn't understand it. It was that he pulled a notion out of his BUTT and said I wrote it. I was like, "where?" and he couldn't find it; he just assumed that my characters must be trying to help humanity. Maybe he confused it with something else. Another absurd example.

As for you finding it silly...well, up to you, but you only read the first chapter, right? That's supposed to be "silly"; it's an introduction to the pointless weirdness of my odd little chick. Hmm, I guess all I could say at this point is "you'll see..." If you were to read more, that is, or be able to read it without thinking "man, this is just goofy, what's wrong with this girl?"

And just because a writer understands the premise of his or her book doesn't mean that his or her readers will. That's what taking and listening to critisism is all about, so you can recieve your reader's impression of your work, not just yours. It is the reader's impression that really counts.

Hmm umm...is there a better way to say this? Not really, so I'll just say it: THAT'S OBVIOUS. Jeesh, I know!

I know that if the reader doesn't get my message, it is most likely that I am the one who's screwed up. But do you think all I get is criticism? I've been working on this for four and a half years. I've had a LOT more praise than criticism, and while it still has a long way to go before even I'M satisfied with it, I know it's really coming along. You probably wouldn't believe me if I told you some of the things that have sparked from discussing my books with people who like them...people who have bugged me for months to read more...people who have (this sounds pathetic) been changed for the better because of my little novels... They are character-oriented pieces involving the long-term growth of a realistic person, despite what kind of goof-ass fluff it looks like at the beginning. Because that's my character's starting point. So maybe it looks silly. Oh well. It's her beginning as a person evolving to a higher state...we all have a starting point, and this is just my record of hers.

That's because the biggest problem in your book is the lack of character discription. Until I saw the pictures you drew of her, I had the impression that Ivy had wings too since she could fly.

::grin:: If Ivy has wings in people's minds in chapter 1, I get rid of them very quickly by chapter 2 at the latest. I'm still working on the character description, though: fact is the obvious lack of physical description is the result of cutting out "more for me than for the reader" descriptions of them I had at the beginning of my writing this novel. I'm still looking for good places to accurately describe while not taking a time out to do it, and it's a delicate process when a novel is so intimately tied to a character's thought process (I mean, people don't stand there and think what color people's eyes are and stuff, so it's hard at times). BUT...you should have an almost-complete picture of at least Ivy by the end of the third chapter, which you haven't read far as I know. The guy I mentioned had read through the first, second, and third chapters (the third chapter even has Ivy jokingly telling someone she can't be a fairy godmother because she doesn't have wings), and yet this guy wrote me an e-mail asking why I didn't describe Ivy's wings. Hmm. There is a LOT more character description in chapters 2 and 3, though in chapter 1 I kind of wanted people to wonder "what the hell is this and who the hell are you?" There is a lot of detail about why Ivy can fly without wings if you just give it a second to get to it.

I also was going out of my mind trying to figure out what the hell her best friend was. You spent no time describing him at all at the beginning.

::shrug:: if you saw him, you wouldn't have a name for what he was either. One of my pet peeves about fantasy is that people recycle the same mythological creatures, not to put yours down because I think it's just fine to use griffins and whatnot; I just wasn't interested in adding another book to that group. So I made up my own creatures, which is a bit troublesome because without a species name there's no givens to what the character looks like. I'm actually very good at character description, but not as good, it seems, at figuring out where to put it so it sounds natural. And so far, sounding natural has been more important to me than describing. I am still working on this, as mentioned.

So unless you intend to have illustrations throughout your novel, I strongly suggest that you spend more time on describing your characters whether it be through narrative or dialogue.

Illustrations might be fun. :) But I haven't yet met the person who could capture a good likeness, and I suck too much to do it myself.

When a lot of people get a different idea or message about your story than the one you have, then the problem lies with the way the story is written, not with them! It's just plain egotistical and self righteous to believe otherwise. You have to remember that people are not going to be as familiar with your book's characters or enviornment as you are.

Okay see, I think this is where you have me wrong. You've got me down as thinking that if a person misunderstands what I'm saying, I fly into a hissy and write them off as an asshole. It is absolutely NOT true that people's misunderstanding always lies with ineffective writing. You probably think that the guy's misunderstandings that I was relating are typical responses to my novels. No. Yes if a LOT of people (or even more than one) have the same idea. But as I said earlier, not before and not once since has anyone asserted that I'm silly for having my characters helping out humanity for no apparent reason...because they AREN'T.

People sometimes misunderstand, and I was showing you what erroneous conclusions this guy came to in order to illustrate a completely different point: the kind of criticism I can't stand.

It's like a customer I had at work today who pissed me off. When I rang up a book for her, the register display said $25.00, because that was the cost of her book, before tax. Without waiting for the go-ahead, she wrote a check for $25.00, and when I told her the total was $26.50, she started telling me off, saying I shouldn't have told her it was 25 bucks if there was still tax, and now she was going to have to give me the rest in cash. Um. But I never said anything about 25 bucks being her grand total, you see. I didn't even say 25 bucks. She just saw the register display and assumed that was the total for some reason that only jackasses know.

That's what people do sometimes. They misread, they misunderstand, and they blame anyone but themselves. When people skip over something I've specifically said in my book and choose to believe the opposite, THAT is a comprehension problem, not a writing problem. It's like someone firmly believing that one of my dark-haired characters is blonde, because he "sees her that way" no matter how many times I describe her hair as dark and friggin' CHOCOLATE-like, you know what I mean? I cannot get any more UNblonde than that in my description and he still believes Nina was described as a blonde. Okay. That was a brain fart that has nothing to do with me. I did my part, dammit. And no one else thinks Nina's blonde. :)

As an aside, in the area of description, I tend to tell the reader too little and let them imagine rather than bludgeon them with so many details they feel spoonfed...that's just kind of my way... I do know that I need more description in there, but I'm just informing you of my natural inclination to let the reader fill in the gaps rather than spoon feed everything.

Me:
I didn't say I utterly can't stand unsolicited advice. I said this: "if you give unsolicited advice sometimes it sounds condescending, which I utterly can't stand and to which I am very sensitive."
You:
These are just two ways of saying the exact same thing.

Then this is an example of you not paying attention. I tried to show you why they're different and you're still insisting there's no difference. Here's the skinny: I don't like when people talk down to me. I did NOT say I don't like unsolicited advice, though it does fall under different rules as to how I treat it from advice I DID ask for. I was telling you that I don't like when people are condescending. THAT is the part I am talking about. Talking down to me. I do not like being talked down to. Okay? I hope that's clear that that's what I meant. On one occasion a remark you made was condescending in my opinion, and it also happened to be unsolicited advice. It was the condescending part of it that bugged me, not the fact that I didn't ask for it. We clear?

Again, I stand by the fact that this is NOT what you did in "Bad Fairy" and you don't seem to appreciate that. If I don't tell you that about your story, who will?

The girl who reviewed my story and with whose remark you agreed, for starters.

And if you were such a decent writer, you would know how to take constructive critisism better and not interpret it as "condescending" and act all tempermental about it and take it personally.

I took the constructive criticism part of it just fine. I wonder if you skipped over the part of my response where I said "yes I do think that the voice comes across a bit too young," though there ARE reasons for it doing so it came across a bit too young anyway. The part I took as condescending was third grade writing advice.

Now I am trying to be as patient and polite about your work as I possibly can, but it is getting more and more difficult to do so with the childish and irritable tone you use.

Rephrased: "I'm being mature and trying to help you, but you're being a baby." All the blame goes to me. Condescending, anyone? Yeah. Maybe we need to use "I" statements instead. Okay. *I* think that I'm being misread. *I* think that my tone may be coming across to you in a way I do not mean you to take it. *I* think, based on your statements, that I must seem like I'm in denial about reality and people's perceptions of my work, while in fact I've only been sharing bad examples to help me illustrate related points.

No offence, but perhaps you are not as good a writer as you think you are since you hold your impression of your own work in far higher regard than that of your readers, the latter being infinitely more important.

Gak! Get off my back, dude!

You don't know how I hold my impression of my work at all. I only shared examples of people who didn't get it. And recently I've been getting a lot of lavish praise from people over things I really didn't think were that good, so it's recently been just the opposite.

That's what I have been doin all along, but you are just too sensitive and self righteous to see it that way. Indeed, it seems that the only response to your work that doesn't offend you are those that focus only on the good points.

That's just weird. I think the only comments you've made on my work are that in "Bad Fairy" the voice came across too young and that I need more character description in my novel chapters. But most of our e-mails back and forth have been on the subject of who's really saying what. You already said that if you say something and a person doesn't get your intended message, you need to revise the words you used to deliver that message. Now do you see yourself saying "Well I've been doing that all along, but you're taking it all wrong and being a baby about it"...? The *tone* of your messages to me has made me think you're talking down to me, that you think I don't know what I'm doing, that you have a completely different impression of how I view writing, my own work, and my readers than the views I actually hold dear. Bottom line: If I'm taking YOU so wrong, rephrase, and maybe I'll take you right next time.

~*~*iVY

[Note: GET READY FOR A BIG DERAIL! WHEEEEE!]

To: Ivy
From: Wesley

You certainly go on, don't you? This only demonstrates your over sensitivity. To think that all of your speeches and rants all started by a few simple criticisms that were meant kindly. I think that it is you who are getting pissed off to spend so much time and trouble dissecting everything I said so far.

And even if that guy's critisism wasn't warranted, it was still solicited because you did pique his intrest in your story and gave that guy your literature to read, expecting some kind of review.

You claim that you already know that it is the reader's impression that really counts. Well, one wouldn't know it to hear you go on. What I can't get over is that many people got the impression that Ivy had wings. If that many people got that impression, does that not indicate that you should at least spend more time on character description? Because I find that noticably lacking and could cause the reader to lose intrest in the first chapter.

I know that there isn't a name for the creature you made up, but you should have described him to the extent that it was clear to the reader that this was a creature that you totaly made up and not part of our animal world or from our mythology. The fact that you didn't I found frustrating and I failed to get a clear image in my head of what was going on.

It is good that people have praised your novel, but the only thing you gave me to go on were the critisisms that you have recieved. But on the bright side, critisisms can be more informative and helpful than praise.

And I never was condescending in my messages to you. That's just your hyper sensitivity, demonstrated by the way you spent paragraphs discecting my every word.

Anyway, I hope I have in some way helped you gain new insights to your story and I wish you the best of luck getting published.

Wesley [last name redacted]

To: Wesley
From: Ivy

You certainly go on, don't you?

::chuckle:: Sometimes. If it's something I care about, and I cared about you getting the right impression. But it's useless to keep doing it if you're just going to take my "going on" as proof that I'm just hypersensitive and ignore what I'm saying...

To think that all of your speeches and rants all started by a few simple criticisms that were meant kindly.

We've both written the same number of e-mails to each other. I'm not just ranting to nobody. You're replying. We're both "at fault" for the length and depth of these e-mails. It isn't just me throwing a barrage at you. "I" statements?

And even if that guy's critisism wasn't warranted, it was still solicited

Do you understand the difference between "warranted" and "solicited"? I was only trying to say it wasn't warranted, nothing at all about whether I "solicited" it.

What I can't get over is that many people got the impression that Ivy had wings.

Where are you getting this "many people" thing? I said one guy, the same one that came up with all kinds of bizarre things he pulled out of his butt about my story. This is all just that one dude. And it's very easy to assume Ivy has wings if she flies...until you get to chapter 2. The guy of which I speak had been through chapter 3, and you have to be a dingus (or not be reading large chunks of the book) to miss how she flies without wings, since the story is all about that.

I find that noticably lacking and could cause the reader to lose intrest in the first chapter.

You don't have to try to convince me that my character description lacks the fullness it needs; I'm working on it and I told you that--it's part of the reason I've already said the damn thing isn't finished. But I think being curious about the characters helps to draw a reader in.

I know that there isn't a name for the creature you made up, but you should have described him to the extent that it was clear to the reader that this was a creature that you totaly made up and not part of our animal world or from our mythology.

It'll come eventually, though I don't believe it's fair to say if a reader can't picture every character with full details, then they'll say "forget this" and become disinterested...maybe you're a more visual reader/writer than I am. But as I've said a few times and am NOT disputing, this is something I'm always adding to.

It is good that people have praised your novel, but the only thing you gave me to go on were the critisisms that you have recieved. But on the bright side, critisisms can be more informative and helpful than praise.

I know I only gave you criticisms at first; they helped me illustrate other points I was making, but they have been distorted and I don't think we can sort them out now. Yes, criticism is good, especially when it comes with praise in the same package. My friend Mark was the best editor I ever had and one of my biggest fans, and part of the reason he was so good at his "job" was that he really enjoyed the characters. He's been known to IM me online and ask me what Ivy's up to these days, which has some double meanings indeed...

I never was condescending in my messages to you. That's just your hyper sensitivity, demonstrated by the way you spent paragraphs discecting my every word.

Saying "I was never condescending in my messages" is like me saying "I didn't use too young a voice in 'Bad Fairy.'" If that's the impression both of us got from reading each other's writing, then in each other's minds, that is the reality. This can't just apply to me and not you. Be aware of that please.

I wish you the best of luck getting published.

Hmm, second time you've said that. Thanks, I'll need it. Yuck.

~*~*iVY

To: Ivy
From: Wesley

But that's exactly what you are, hypersensitive. Every email you send me helps confirm that. They are all so defensive. And I do pay attention to what you say, perhaps more than you do.

You're the one who's doing all the ranting and getting all defensive. I'm merely replying to your rants and explaining my position as calmly and as reasonably as I possibly can to one with a fragile ego. There's a difference.

And yes, I do understand the difference between "warranted" and "solicited." That's why I stand by the fact that you solicited a criticism by piquing that guy's interest in your story and giving it to him to review. Even if his criticisms weren't warranted.

And the criticisms you mentioned weren't from just "one guy." You mentioned other people as well who thought Ivy had wings. Two words to eliminate that misconception: "Character description!"

And for a character like Ivy's friend, I believe that it is crucial that you spend more time describing him at the beginning lest readers become frustrated because they don't know what the heck he is. A close description of the human characters may not be as important, but for a creature like Ivy's friend, it's definitely a necessity.

Lastly, there is a difference between one's criticism of a story and how one writes a story, so your statement: "Saying "I was never condescending in my messages" is like me saying "I didn't use too young a voice in 'Bad Fairy.'" " Is inaccurate. I was responding to a story, you are responding to criticism. And calling it "condescending" is merely hypersensitivity.

And so what if I wished you luck in getting published a second time? I only did that so you wouldn't get entirely upset with my message given how sensitive you are.

Wesley [last name redacted]

[Got that everyone! Everything's about me being hypersensitive. Every time HE replies, it's not because he has to have the last word or rant at me or keep making the same points he's already made or reiterating the same misconceptions I've already tried to clear up. He is rational. I'm the only one who's not. Obviously.]

To: Wesley
From: Ivy

You're the one who's doing all the ranting and getting all defensive. I'm merely replying to your rants and explaining my position as calmly and as reasonably as I possibly can to one with a fragile ego.

I still can't figure out why you keep acting like I'm all riled up when I'm writing back to you, yet yours are "calm." Mine are all "rants" and yours are calm replies? Come on now. You're trying to paint this picture of me breaking down and hollering like oh my GOD he insulted my story...where're you getting this stuff?

And yes, I do understand the difference between "warranted" and "solicited." That's why I stand by the fact that you solicited a criticism by piquing that guy's interest in your story and giving it to him to review. Even if his criticisms weren't warranted.

Arrrgh. This has got to be the like fourth time you've said this. You're "standing by" the fact that I solicited some criticism when I never said I didn't!

And the criticisms you mentioned weren't from just "one guy." You mentioned other people as well who thought Ivy had wings. Two words to eliminate that misconception: "Character description!"

A couple other people thought Ivy had wings until they kept reading. Two words eliminate the misconception: "Chapter two!" And that's only if you hadn't picked up on clues I dropped in chapter one, which some people don't, so I say it right out in chapter two. For someone who's read one chapter, you sure act like you know a lot about my stuff and all its shortcomings...

And for a character like Ivy's friend, I believe that it is crucial that you spend more time describing him at the beginning lest readers become frustrated because they don't know what the heck he is.

More time, yes. I've already said I'm working more visual details in on the whole, in all aspects of the book. But you keep ignoring me and insisting this is necessary when I'm not debating that.

I was responding to a story, you are responding to criticism. And calling it "condescending" is merely hypersensitivity.

Sure responding to a story and responding to criticism are different things, but again you didn't pick up what I was actually trying to say. I was saying that if you say something, and the person you say it to takes it a certain way that you didn't mean, it is more likely that YOU have the error in your phrasing. If you can maybe put yourself in my place for a second and think "now how would I feel if this showed up in my inbox?" then maybe you'll see why I take things the way I have.

[Note: Yes, I was implying that maybe he's not as good at putting himself in another person's place as he thinks he is.]

Here, I'll try and show you why I thought one of your suggestions was condescending. If I was a gymnast and I was trying to vault over the horse, and I kept screwing up and crashing into the horse instead of vaulting over it, suppose my gym teacher came over and told me, "When I vault over the horse, I try to jump a little higher." Well of course! C'mon. When you told me, in response to the unconvincing tone in "Bad Fairy," that YOU try to put yourself in a character's place when you write about them, I experienced the same "well OBVIOUSLY." Perhaps you didn't realize how basic your advice sounded to me, and that was why you said it...but to me, it's like someone saying "ya know, you should show instead of tell" or something like that, something from the list of the top ten third grade rules for writing stories. I've heard this before and I *did* put myself in the character's place; the lack of realistic tone is partly caused by my lack of experience writing from such a point of view and partly by the fact that contrary to readers' expectations, my character DID remain a bit young-minded for her age. Putting myself in her place was not a problem; conveying it with 100% realism for all readers was the problem, and remains one of the many reasons that I myself gave that story three stars out of five. I know it's not my best, mostly for some reasons you haven't mentioned...but the fact remains that biting my head off is NOT necessary, and neither is talking down to me.

And so what if I wished you luck in getting published a second time?

Uh...I don't even know what to say to this. I didn't point out that you wished me luck twice to make any kind of statement. What, you thought this was me getting pissed about something too? Maybe I'm not the only one who's coming across as hypersensitive in text format.

Hmm, that's all for now...

~*~*iVY

To: Ivy
From: Wesley

The more defensive you get, the more hypersensitive you demonstrate that you are. That's where I'm getting this stuff. Then you say stuff and later claim that you never said them at all. I find that perplexing.

And a gym teacher saying you should jump higher is far more general than my describing a certian writing technique. If that gym teacher told you how to jump higher, you'd still say DUH and then refuse to do it, just like you are doing here in your writing.

There is a lot more I could say about your misconceptions, but I'm just not obsessed enough to think that it is worth it. Good night.

Wesley [last name redacted]

[Oops, I just can't be bothered to argue with you anymore. Except for the part where I keep sending e-mails where I am arguing with you.]

To: Wesley
From: Ivy

The more defensive you get, the more hypersensitive you demonstrate that you are.

See, that's where you've been taking me all wrong the whole time. Just like "denial" is also employed when something is NOT TRUE (rather than just a weak defense mechanism against something that is true), *defense* is also applied when someone wishes to correct another person's misguided assumptions. Because I'm trying to show you where you came to the wrong conclusion, you slap the "defensive" label on me, and continue to ignore what I said.

Then you say stuff and later claim that you never said them at all. I find that perplexing.

You THINK I said things that I never said. At one point you asserted two things I said meant exactly the same thing when my POINT in saying them was that they were different.

And a gym teacher saying you should jump higher is far more general than my describing a certian writing technique.

That was the problem; you didn't describe it. "Jump higher" is the same as "put yourself in the character's place." Now my gym teacher might have given me good advice as to HOW to jump higher, like how to channel all my energy into the vertical jump, and some exercises that might be good for building up strong muscles. That would have been valuable. If you had something a little more valuable to say, like suggestions as to how you thought I might "age" the voice of my character (or even pointing out the parts that just "sounded" young to you), then it may not have sounded so condescending. In the form you gave it to me, I objected to it because it sounded like you were talking down to me. You told me something I already knew, and should have known if I was any good at writing at all. So when you said it, it made me think you really must not think much of my writing at all, and THAT is why it sounded like you were trying to talk down to me.

If that gym teacher told you how to jump higher, you'd still say DUH and then refuse to do it, just like you are doing here in your writing.

You never tried to tell me how to jump higher; you just told me I needed to. The only time I "refuse" to jump higher is if I know I'm jumping over a hole in the ground and not a horse (i.e., my purpose is different than what you think).

In our e-mails I have noticed that if I disagree with you, or try to justify my position, you assign me the qualities of having a frail ego, being defensive and hypersensitive, and/or ignoring your advice.

Just understand that when I *disagree* with you or think your advice is inappropriate, it's just that: disagreement.

You have chosen to take my disagreement as a signal that you should generalize overemphasized, all-encompassing weaknesses to every aspect of my character. This has rendered most of our communication useless. And I *am* "obsessed" enough to go into it, because right from the beginning, it has *mattered* to me that you understood what I was saying. But all I had to do was disagree, or have a different opinion, and you assigned me faults and wrote me off. There's more than one way to be right, but when I try to tell you that, you act like I'm telling you you're wrong. Chill, okay?

~*~*iVY

To: Ivy
From: Wesley

This sure sounds defensive to me. And the fact that you are overanalyzing my remarks tells me that you are trying more to convince yourself than me. Have you ever heard the Shakespearean quote:

"Methinks thou doest protest too much?"

One final piece of advice: Try to take critisism a little better and don't be so defensive.

Wesley [last name redacted]

To: Wesley
From: Ivy

And the fact that you are overanalyzing my remarks tells me that you are trying more to convince yourself than me.

Not really, I just wanted you to see WHY I sent you such detailed stuff, with citings...I want to be understood, and you've developed a habit of misunderstanding me.

"Methinks thou doest protest too much?"

Yup. It's a nice (condescending, I might add) way to tell someone they're basically a giant liar, like someone who claims to hate homosexuals to cover up the fact that he's gay. Thanks.

Try to take critisism a little better and don't be so defensive.

I find that where others have responded to my discussion of vague critiques with clarification, you've jumped to the conclusion that if I want clarification I'm therefore rejecting your critiques as unjust entirely. You didn't understand what I was getting at, and have furthermore generalized this to be my attitude toward all criticism. It's gotten us nowhere. I have learned that in the future, if someone responds to me like you have, I will refrain from even trying to analyze the words for fear of being labeled "defensive" and thereby wasting both of our time. ::sigh::

~*~iVY

To: Ivy
From: Wesley

I think that your most recent response only helps to prove my point. You are not only a defensive indivudual with a fragile ego, but you are in denial as well.

Wesley [last name redacted]

To: Wesley
From: Ivy

I think that your most recent response only helps to prove my point.

You're proving your points only to yourself. The only thing you've proved to me is that you quit listening to me when I disagreed.

You are not only a defensive indivudual with a fragile ego, but you are in denial as well.

Thanks for the name-calling and self-righteous judgment. I need no further convincing that our communication has been useless...

*~*~iVY

To: Ivy
From: Wesley

Yes, Ms. Defensive. (snicker)

[I wonder if, had I replied to this with "no, you!"--this might have been an e-mail chain that would have gone on for six years. You know what they say about people who have a burning need to have the last word. Maybe if I'd replied any more, I would have gotten a yo' momma insult? Eh, probably not. He seems to stick to most of the more traditional logical fallacies, like argument from authority, tone arguments, and ad hominem.]