The reliablility of the bible? An interesting topic and contradictions. First, lets talk the about the realiablity of the bible. We will start with how it is passed down, how the scribes worked. Well one of the first things that you will notice is the absolute care that was taken by the script to transpose every single word, completely accurate. If one word was incorrect, well they didn't take out

the eraser and erase just that word. They started over again. I don't care if they were at the final Amen in Revelation a spelled it wrong. They started from scatch again. So they are meticulous in transposing. After the dead sea scrolls were found, this confirmed what I would already known, that the were completely accurate. Second, is there any other book that is prophetic (holy book), the

the answer of course is no. Islam doesn't try, Buddist don't, etc. What is so great about that. Well, let face it if seeing is beleiving, and you can see prophecy being fulfilled before your very eyes, it doesn't take much to point a finger and say there it is. Predicted 2000 years ago. Of course I am speaking of Israel becoming a nation again. It also predicted that in the end days, it would be

the focus of the world. Have you read the headlines in the last two years. Is there a nation on earth that has dominated the news like Israel, especially considering it is no larger than New Jersey in size. Of course you could also compare Psalm 22 and the crucifixtion. Did I mention that wasn't even a punishment that was thought of yet, but there it was was in the gospel, undeniably. I could

write for days on that subject alone. But lets move on to some more facts about the bible. It is the most scrutinize book in the world, and has been since the printing press. It has been disected by scientist, secular and thelogian types and many have been converted trying to prove it wrong. Furhtermore, as we begin discovering more and more in digs etc. They are finding out that the bible is

proving itself to be more accurate every day. Cities have been found, left exactly as said, scientist now say all human DNA comes back to one woman, I could have told them that from Genesis without the spending of millions of dollars. I suggest respectfully some study be done on how modern science is not taking away from the accounts of the bible, but continue to support the divine inspiration of

the bible. As for your contradictions, I challenge you to go to your local Christian bookstore and get this book call Supposed bible contradictions and answers. I don't have time to list them all here. Translation problems, well the truth is that man was sort of right, although the way he decribed it may be a bit inaccurate, but I won't go as far as to say lying. There is a simple fact that

as our culture dumbs down. In order to give everyone the chance to read and understand the bible, they have contineous move more and more away from LITERAL translations which translate word for word, to a THOUGHT for THOUGHT translation, were bible scholars trying to bring forth not only the words, but connect them with the intended meaning. Some huge flaws can be found, not to mention the fact

you have now put human reasoning into a divine writing. The average american reads below the 7th grade level which the NIV is based on. And the NLT goes even lower. He was 100% right in the fact that you are worshipping the creation and not the creator. I am sorry if you don't like to hear that, but it is just the truth, and it was for that reason God gave them over to their reprobate minds.

If you have read the bible you would also know he did not create man with a sinful nature in the beginning. Everything he created was GOOD, again back to Genesis. It was the fall of man that brought forth the sinful nature passed down through the first Adam, and conquered by the second Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ. Look around you at the elements that you describe and also notice in Matthew 24 the

very elements you worship, will be used by God in his judgment of the Earth and mankind. Now I am sure that you think I am bashing your faith, I am not, I am just trying to give you maybe some more thoughts that he may not have been able to express. I hope that you will take seriously the thoughts I expressed, maybe read A Case for Christ, A Case for Faith, and a slew of other books that put some

time and effort into answering those questions. I do have a question for you. That pentagram what has it always been affilated with? No so much today as yesterday. The bible also tells of the rise of many false teachers and occult type doctrine in the end days. One thing is for sure Wiccan is on the rise throughout the USA and I am sure in other places in the world also, as well as many other

doctrines of demons etc. And last thought, how much time have you ever took to really study the bible? Not a casual glance, but in depth study, and if you have done alot, who was it by if you don't mind me asking.

[As you might imagine I didn't like having a huge amount of comments thrown at me this way considering I had personal contact info available if he wanted to send me an essay, and I found this really obnoxious, but I answered it in a post.]

So, it appears that adding my previous entry to the "Spirituality" circle attracted me a bit more attention than I expected. I appear to have gotten no less than thirteen "notes" from this BrotherJim guy. This has sparked my desire to chatter on a bit about my own perceptions of issues he has brought up.

Thank you, BrotherJim, for trying so hard, and I really don't think that was faith-bashing; I'm just annoyed that you chose this medium to do it. I have contact information on my front information page if you wanna get into it with me; notes are supposed to be brief, not dissertations, and I somehow doubt that you could fit everything you think is wrong with my religion into thirteen (or even forty) notes, any more than I could pack notes full of every contradiction in the Bible. For that you might try going to The Skeptic's Annotated Bible to see what I mean. They're there, friend.

Now I might voice some of my own thoughts on issues that BrotherJim was kind enough to raise in my diary last time.

The reliability of the Bible?

As far as I can tell, the Bible was brought together from collections of stories several hundred years after Christ's death. As much as anyone might like to believe it, there was no giant professional council handling the translation, collection, and scribing of Bible verses right from the beginning. For a long time, just like all mythological records, they were passed around by word of mouth. People could rarely read back then, so this is how information was passed. Zeus's lightning bolts made it into Greek scriptures by word of mouth. In ancient Egypt there were pictures of people's hearts being weighed by underworld gods. And word of Jesus's miracles and ultimate sacrifice traveled far and wide.

How much can you trust a mob with a story, anyway?

There seems to me no reason why God would say something once and then leave people to scramble for the pieces for a couple thousand years, hoping they got assembled right-side-up in order to be guaranteed entrance to Heaven. There may have been great care taken with getting the scripture right after a certain point, but there was no one videotaping the Jesus Saga right from the beginning, and because of that, the insistence that it "has to be right because they were so careful" is totally inappropriate.

But that doesn't really matter anyway. Because the core of the whole thing is whether you believe the Bible is the Word of God, and there is nothing on Earth that can make me believe the Bible is the Word of God unless the actual Mouth of God speaks those same words directly to me.

The Bible as prophecy?

There have been thousands of people who predicted things over the years. Some did it in religious collections or spiritual books. Others did it on the psychic friends network. Sometimes the predictions appeared to come true. Look at Nostradamus. People have been thrown into a tizzy over the accuracy of some of his predictions, but if you look at how many he made and how vague they are, doesn't that stand to reason?

If you wait long enough, isn't Israel likely to become a nation just by virtue of how much time has passed?

You have to do some serious "interpretation" (read: make lots of excuses) to make some of the Bible predictions come true, most notably that Christ hasn't returned. I thought it said pretty clearly that Christ was returning within the lifetime of the people who heard him speak. Now in order for that to be true anymore, you have to give all kinds of vague interpretations to the meaning of a generation.

It is also a logical fallacy to assume that EVERYTHING in a book is true if you just find one part of it that is true. Suzy likes crackers. Bobby likes crackers. Suzy and Bobby are kids. Therefore...ALL KIDS MUST LIKE CRACKERS! Um, wait, NO.

The importance of Israel?

Of course Israel has the attention of the world. Bloody wars have been fought over that scrap of land for hundreds of years, because everyone thinks God wants THEM to have it, no no MY book says it's MINE...MOMMY!!!! People are dying, and have been for a long time, because they feel it's their religious right to occupy that land. There are plenty of other world events that have held the planet in thrall, and I can assure you that they're not all itemized in the Bible. Yet as soon as one matches a prophecy, the Bible-thumpers pat their chests and say, "See, toldja."

Scientists, historians, et cetera scrutinizing the Bible?

Okay, so one of BrotherJim's notes went off on how so many people are scrutinizing the Bible and, surprise surprise, finding out that it's actually more true than they expected. What else do you think you're going to find if the books you read are from a Christian perspective? If it's shelved in the Bible section, you can pretty much assume that it's going to support and prove what you already believe. If you think that the scientific community and everyone else is just bowled over by the truths of the Bible, then you're not reading the words of the majority voice of that population. That is not the consensus.

I've read Jesus Among Other Gods, a book by a Christian dedicated to showing how come the Gospels are undeniably the only truth, and everything else is a lie. I was able to completely debunk the author's claims because he basically threw out other religions' theories because of their lack of internal consistency, such as the mistakes in the Koran, but claims that the Bible is the only flawless piece of holy literature there is.

The Bible's flawless, able to be followed word for word as is God's will. But this "flawless" document contains absurdities, such as everyone coming from Adam and Eve, yet somehow Cain finds a wife that wasn't his sister; it contains contradictions, such as whether it's necessary to be circumcised (Gen 17:10 says yes, Gal 5:2 says no--not to mention all the numerical screw-ups in there); it contains false prophecies (such as Jeremiah 42:17, which basically says ALL men who go to Egypt will die by sword, famine, or pestilence, yet a lot seem to have escaped that fate over the years).

I don't think this guy has the "flawless" argument on his side anymore.

How do we know the verses everyone takes the most seriously aren't misinterpreted, misquoted, misheard, deliberately changed by someone in power, et cetera? If there is anything about the Bible, anything at all, that can be pointed out as contradictory or otherwise false, then we lose the right to assume in pure faith that it is a correct document. There are parts that might be true, sure. But people could also look at the ancient writings of Homer and actually find the places Odysseus traveled to in the books; that doesn't mean that an enchantress must have really turned all his men to pigs or that Odysseus was trapped by Calypso on an island for years. Stories tend to have actual places in them if they are based on the same reality the author lives in. It happens a lot. I have New York City in one of my books, but I somehow doubt that future generations will find my old manuscripts, use them to pick out the ruins of NYC in the distant future, and conclude that my characters must have really existed.

BrotherJim sez scientists have concluded all human DNA comes from one woman?

Um, what scientist said that?

And are there ninety-nine others who say otherwise, ninety-nine others who are being conveniently ignored?

Having a Ph.D. doesn't mean you're right, folks.

God didn't create man with a sinful nature in the beginning?

If God knows all, He knew Adam and Eve would be tempted. He is the Alpha and the Omega, after all; He is the one that orchestrated EVERYTHING. So he created that; that scenario, and the downfall of man. He had to have created Adam and Eve with the capacity to sin, and He knew they would do it.

How much in-depth studying of the Bible have I done?

Probably as much in-depth study as any Christian has done into all the other faiths his own "proves" wrong. I know the basic beliefs of Christianity, and they totally clash with my worldview. I'm told by Christians that we're sinful creatures who need God's forgiveness through the person of Jesus Christ. In my life, I don't feel that that's true. I don't feel the presence of or experience the will of a God that needs me to make some very strange little deal before He'll let me into His paradise. I think it's awful nice that Jesus wanted to wash away the sins of the world with his blood, but I just don't think the whole Universe revolves around the need to believe someone died because beyond my control I was born bad.

Now I know, I know, I'm going to be told to do in-depth Bible study and dig up all the truths and everything in the Bible, so I can see just how true it is, and realize because it does have elements of internal and historical consistency it must contain the one and only map to salvation.

But if I know the basic belief and I don't agree with it, why would I keep studying and studying? That's like if I told a Christian, who already believes Christ is the only way, that he needs to systematically experience every religion other than his own to know for sure those others are not for him. That Christian would have to go earnestly searching for enlightenment as a Buddhist monk for several years, and then spend several years studying the Talmud because the Jews might be right; take up an herb collection and work some magick and cast some circles to fully experience a Pagan religious rite and then legitimately decide it's not right; well, et cetera. If the basic nodule of the religion strikes you as WRONG, the only study you're going to do of that religion is merely as a curiosity. And that is how I've studied Christianity; I've been to several meetings of "youth groups" and have sung religious music; I have read parts of the Bible and interpreted them myself; I have talked more than I want to admit to Christians determined to save me. But even though I listen openly and take in everything about the religion that I come across, I feel no strong need to seek out more just to make sure I'm right about it being wrong; I mean no disrespect to the people trying to help me, but if they say something and it just does not ring true with me, by way of intellect, intuition, logic, or experience, I am not going to accept it as true, and that's all there is to it.

I should read A Case for Christ, and other religious materials?

I never said I was against such things. And actually once in a while I read religious books written from points of view other than my own (though I must admit to mostly reading fiction). I still very much doubt it will do much for me regarding changing my mind on Christianity, but it's always worth a shot. But my past experience with books of this nature is that they're full of excuses. Little excuses as to why that's in the Bible, or what that REALLY means...ultimately, you have to do SO much to make the Bible make sense that I just don't see why people bother.

And that's about it.

Now, I don't mind the occasional little note, even if it exists to disagree with me. But BrotherJim, if you're reading this...please no more term papers in my note box. I'd prefer to be approached out of the public eye if you really think this is worth your time. Thank you.

[And BrotherJim claimed he HAD to use public notes because if he contacted any woman privately it would have the appearance of cheating on his wife, so that was the end of that. Though oddly enough he did contact me later in a note and suggest that he WOULD be willing to communicate privately if I could do an editing job for him. I guess morals are absolute. Unless you need to bend them for convenience.]